Redwall: Warlords

Forgive me if this doesn't belong in General Discussion, I'm not sure were to put it. This is one of my favorite songs. It's pretty freekin' awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sam4lq2WHos

I'm sorry to say a lot of people don't respect our military anymore.

respect for those who fight for their country regardless what side, we all have our beliefs

 The reason I think people don't care much about the military is that they don't value freedom very much. Back in WW1, WW2, and Korea we were all happy to fight and die for other people's freedom. Now (and I think ever since Vietnam) people are jumping to give up freedom for a handout in welfare programs like socialized healthcare, public schools, public transit, Libraries, and social security. It's disgusting how much freedom we lost in the last 80 years.

I respect soldiers too. Not just because they have guns, though. Practically all the kids like them because they have guns.  :P

Not meaning to double-post, but this song makes me cry. I'm crying already :(. Tears of respect...

Quote from: Ian2424 on April 10, 2012, 01:45:24 PM
Not meaning to double-post, but this song makes me cry. I'm crying already :(. Tears of respect...

That was the top comment. Cheater.

Oh, Ian brought up another point that I'd like to make. A soldier is in the Army, a sailor in the Navy, an Airman in the Air Force, and a Marine in the Marine Corps. Because they all think they are better than each other (particularly the Marine Corps) they take it as an insult to be misaddressed in a generalized fashion as soldier. I know one Marine specifically who was court marshaled for an act of violence on a man who called him a soldier. 

Oops. I forgot about that.  :-\

you dont become a soldier or whatever you maybe be called for the title, you join for defending the country you love.

 I know, but Marines have earned the title Marine, the title that will stay with them until they are burred in the front leaning rest. It holds more weight and value than "Soldier", "Airman", or "Sailor".

Quote from: Ian2424 on April 10, 2012, 01:51:18 PM
Oops. I forgot about that.  :-\

looollloolllolll don't you feel stupid.

That's what I think too :o. This is kinda off-topic, but it surprises me that celebrities are more respected than the people who fight for the. U.S and other countries. :-\

 Yea, it pisses me off when people call Tom Brady a hero but don't know who John Basilone is.

yeah its strange, but the celebrities are few and far between compared to the amount of soldiers and they are far more publicized

 :o :o :o :o :o :o. John Basilone is practically Chuck Norris. No, actually, he's better. Person who says Chuck Norris gets punched in the face!

 lol, do you know who John Basilone is? What about Chesty Puller? Dan Daily? Doc Bradly? Corporal Dakota Meyer? Corporal Jason Dunham?

no idea. though im not from America so i doubt i would.

I could only google John Basilone, considering I wasn't born when he was alive, and I live in New Jersey. Lol

And I don't know any of those, since I'm in 5th grade ;)

They've all given much more to this country than Tom Brady has, lets just put it that way.

Okay :D

I'm curious if you guys have family in the army.

my dad was in the army, grandpa in the navy and uncle in the air force, though they all are retired from the forces now.

currently none serving

My Grandpa was in the Navy. He was a Captain. And my cousin is in the Airforce.
Sorry, I sometimes mix Corporal and Captain together  :-\

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 10, 2012, 02:32:51 PM
I'm curious if you guys have family in the army.

No, but I'm enlisting in the Marine Corps on May 30th

Good luck! It seems hard!  :P

 No, boot camp isn't hard.  You can't fail boot camp, they are making a marine, not selecting one.

Love my country, love my military, hate my government. Deal with it.

Currently hoping for a military coup.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 05:28:41 PM
Currently hoping for a military coup.

Sometimes I do to.

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 10, 2012, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 05:28:41 PM
Currently hoping for a military coup.

Sometimes I do to.

Isn't it just a little ironic that you slate loss of freedom earlier in the topic, yet advocate a military coup would likely result in a massive loss of freedom?

Shores of Tripoli, post in Spa, I need fellow militant conservative to back be up from time to time.

Quote from: Sharptooh on April 10, 2012, 05:36:58 PM

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 10, 2012, 05:34:50 PM

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 05:28:41 PM
Currently hoping for a military coup.

Sometimes I do to.

Isn't it just a little ironic that you slate loss of freedom earlier in the topic, yet advocate a military coup would likely result in a massive loss of freedom?

The US military likely wouldn't want anything to do with ruling a nation for very long and would probably create a provisional government to replace the currently tainted and irreversibly corrupt one. Right now we are just subtly losing our freedoms. I don't see the military as being particularly strict, just harsh in punishment. They wouldn't have the time, resources, or manpower to enforce excessive laws.

 Lol, I obviously don't advocate a military coup. It was a joke. I just don't like liberals and due to my violent nature I sometimes think and act violently against them. Thus leading into the hole coup thing.

Never leave. Please. I am alone here.

lol, ok. I wont. haha

Quote
The US military likely wouldn't want anything to do with ruling a nation for very long and would probably create a provisional government to replace the currently tainted and irreversibly corrupt one. Right now we are just subtly losing our freedoms. I don't see the military as being particularly strict, just harsh in punishment. They wouldn't have the time, resources, or manpower to enforce excessive laws.

This is what the hope of all people who have ever supported a military coup is, but it almost never comes to pass (has it ever? Even in Egypt, where respect for the military and military respect for the populace is probably deeper than the US, they are having troubles letting go). I don't think the US is special in this regard.

 Yea, the only coup that I would support would come from disgruntled citizens.

US citizens are armed to the teeth. In some cases better armed than the military. An openly corrupt regime/military dictatorship doesn't last in such a hostile environment.

Sure, the situation would explode pretty quick. What do you think the death toll would be? ^_^

Not high enough.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 05:51:01 PM
Not high enough.

Lol, I like you. Just know that when the government starts to take you're rights away the first right they always take is the right to bear arms.

I have taken precautions for such things. There are many advantages to having an old house with a cellar in the crawlspace and living in a state where you can buy weapons privately.

(Kentucky is the best state in the union basically)

 No way, North Carolina's concealed carry permit is good in like 42 states.

(http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/images/scorecard-grades/2011/NC-scorecard240.gif)
(http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/images/scorecard-grades/2011/KY-scorecard240.gif)

Brady hates my state more, therefor mine is better  :P

(Brady campaign are those gun control nuts)

You people are literally insane

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 06:02:02 PM
(http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/images/scorecard-grades/2011/NC-scorecard240.gif)
(http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/images/scorecard-grades/2011/KY-scorecard240.gif)

Brady hates my state more, therefor mine is better  :P

(Brady campaign are those gun control nuts)

yea, I know Brady. I guess I stand corrected. Kentucky is the best state..... how much is a Uhall?

Pfft, I'd got to Arizona if anything. I think they actually require you to carry a weapon concealed if you carry one at all.

Quote from: Shadow on April 10, 2012, 06:02:47 PM
You people are literally insane

This is EXACTLY what I think when I read the ridiculous debates which are had on here! NOW YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL!

 Is Kentucky an open carry state? NC is.

Yes it is.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 06:12:16 PM
Yes it is.

yea, I prefer open to concealed in allot of cases. The Arby's in my town is practically a gun and knife show. Everyone hangs out and shows off their weapons.

Gotta have a license for concealed carry for SOME UNGODLY REASON. But that's fine, if I can conceal it, then it must not be high enough caliber and I am doing it wrong.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 10, 2012, 06:16:02 PM
Gotta have a license for concealed carry for SOME UNGODLY REASON. But that's fine, if I can conceal it, then it must not be high enough caliber and I am doing it wrong.

Lol yea, .45 ACP all day every day.

.45 LC here. Hope to get a .44 soon though.

 I like revolvers in the punch that they pack but a 1911 will always be king.

It's a fine gun, don't get me wrong. I just have a personal preference for revolvers. They just cannot jam. I suppose a 1911 is very unlikely to if properly maintained but there's always that chance.

And there's that feeling when you pull the hammer back... priceless.

 oh yea, revolvers are fun but for real world application I'd rather have 7 rounds than 5.

I don't miss  :wink:

Also I totally load all chambers. My revolver doesn't have an exposed firing pin so it's all good. You could get some double stack mags for the 1911 and have way more rounds though.

This is a funny thread.

An armed rebellion in the US simply would not work.  A hundred years ago, maybe.  Now everyone but an extreme few are entirely dependent on the system.  Think what would happen if the supply of fuel was stopped, even for a month.  No gas for personal vehicles or, say, grocery trucks.  In NC (oh hai Shores) if there's a threat of snow/ice/hurricane the grocery stores get slammed and are emptied of all the essentials.  Imagine if they stayed empty for weeks.  Mass starvation, noone grows their own food anymore.  Take down the electrical system as well (and thus no water) and the entire country is screwed.

For the record, after Vietnam the returning soldiers were treated poorly.  This is nolonger the case, most people now realize their anger is to be directed at the people who sent them -- not the individual soldier.
Questioning your government's involvement in other nation's affairs is healthy and does not imply that you necessarily take your freedom for granted. 
Note I didn't say war, the US hasn't officially been at war since WWII (fun fact eh?).

QuoteNote I didn't say war, the US hasn't officially been at war since WWII (fun fact eh?)

Only in the most extremely technical terms is this true.

Quote from: windhound on April 10, 2012, 06:31:03 PM
This is a funny thread.

An armed rebellion in the US simply would not work.  A hundred years ago, maybe.  Now everyone but an extreme few are entirely dependent on the system.  Think what would happen if the supply of fuel was stopped, even for a month.  No gas for personal vehicles or, say, grocery trucks.  In NC (oh hai Shores) if there's a threat of snow/ice/hurricane the grocery stores get slammed and are emptied of all the essentials.  Imagine if they stayed empty for weeks.  Mass starvation, noone grows their own food anymore.  Take down the electrical system as well (and thus no water) and the entire country is screwed.

For the record, after Vietnam the returning soldiers were treated poorly.  This is nolonger the case, most people now realize their anger is to be directed at the people who sent them -- not the individual soldier.
Questioning your government's involvement in other nation's affairs is healthy and does not imply that you necessarily take your freedom for granted. 
Note I didn't say war, the US hasn't officially been at war since WWII (fun fact eh?).

It wouldn't work because people are to lazy. Most Civies only get off their fat butt to rush to a buffet or to the fridge. They don't care about freedom. Only football and beer.

And on another note I would want to carry a double stack mag, I have small hands unfortunately. I really hate that or else I would get a double stack 1911.

Quote from: Shadow on April 10, 2012, 06:36:25 PM

QuoteNote I didn't say war, the US hasn't officially been at war since WWII (fun fact eh?)

Only in the most extremely technical terms is this true.

I don't care what congress calls it, if Marines are getting killed then it's a war.

I suppose you could always try those ridiculous magazines that jut 3 inches out... Not sure if they make those in single stack though.

 They have them but they're aftermarket crap. They suck and create jams due to loading problems.

Quote from: Shadow on April 10, 2012, 06:36:25 PM

QuoteNote I didn't say war, the US hasn't officially been at war since WWII (fun fact eh?)

Only in the most extremely technical terms is this true.

I did say official
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Formal

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 10, 2012, 06:36:45 PM
It wouldn't work because people are to lazy. Most Civies only get off their fat [Behind] to rush to a buffet or to the fridge. They don't care about freedom. Only football and beer.

Oh, that's cool.  They can be brave and starve, dehydrate to death.

Lol

New Zealand sucks for weapons, fully auto is illegal :( hard to get good handguns, they all just fire metal BBs. And our milatary is tiny. I do plan to join the RNZAF when im older though.

What's the RNZAF?

Well he said he lives in New Zealand, and this thread is about military, so about half a second of using your brain could probably work out that it's Royal New Zealand Air Force. Or google could do it for you in .12 seconds. Either way is much faster than posting and waiting for a response.

Golly. You'd think she was the queen herself or something.

Is it just me, or is Genevieve grumpy? ::)

Gen.s the most pleasant person I know

I have much respect for the military, but you people are making me *headdesk*.

Good luck Tripoli. I have a friend who is coming back from boot camp this week actually. His advice is to stay as inconspicious as possible. Don't stick out.

Quote from: Ian2424 on April 10, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
Is it just me, or is Genevieve grumpy? ::)

That's normal Ian.

Quote from: Rakefur on April 11, 2012, 07:37:04 AM
Good luck Tripoli. I have a friend who is coming back from boot camp this week actually. His advice is to stay as inconspicious as possible. Don't stick out.

Quote from: Ian2424 on April 10, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
Is it just me, or is Genevieve grumpy? ::)

That's normal Ian.

yea, that's what I've heard.

Quote from: Genevieve on April 10, 2012, 10:42:28 PM
Well he said he lives in New Zealand, and this thread is about military, so about half a second of using your brain could probably work out that it's Royal New Zealand Air Force. Or google could do it for you in .12 seconds. Either way is much faster than posting and waiting for a response.

Yea, you are right. It was kinda silly for me to ask that.

Quote from: Rakefur on April 11, 2012, 07:37:04 AM
Good luck Tripoli. I have a friend who is coming back from boot camp this week actually. His advice is to stay as inconspicious as possible. Don't stick out.

Quote from: Ian2424 on April 10, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
Is it just me, or is Genevieve grumpy? ::)

That's normal Ian.

Okay.  Normally, she's quite nice in my opinion.

@Shores of T
Please don't double post. You can just edit the post you just made. This will keep things a little cleaner for the forum.
- Moderationalizing Dutifications

What made you want to be a marine?

The Marine Corps is the best and always first to fight. It's a warrior culture comparative to Sparta. It's also a family, point in case being bumper stickers: the U.S. Army outnumbers the Marine Corps somewhere around 5:1 if I remember correctly, yet if I go down the road I'll see 10-15 times more Marine Corps bumper stickers than Army ones. Not only that, but they all honk and wave at me and each other (I have a Marine Corps sticker on my Jeep). It's a family aspect that you can't find in any other branch.

So you feel a kinship for the marines. Besides bumper stickers how have you come to feel this kinship?

 Ha, obviously bumper stickers is an example in it's most insignificant form. The kinship is displayed at it's best on the battlefield. In combat you must come to the realization that no matter what you do, how hard you try, or how few mistakes you make, you could still die. It's comforting to know that the worlds most advanced killing machine is sitting next to you in the mud with an M16A4 service rifle. You can rest a little easier in your foxhole knowing that the Marine next to you would willingly give his life to save yours. You can see this illustrated in every Marine who has been awarded a medal for valor in combat. If you were to ask that Marine what made him do it or call him a hero he would be confused, thus being that every single Marine that's ever lived would have done the same in his situation. I'm not trying to downplay his heroism, only up play that of every Marine and Navy Corpsman that's ever been in combat.

just out of curiosity, what separates the Marines for any other member in the forces?

 Marines are held to a higher standard than a Soldier, Marines are naval infantry therefore must be both proficient in ground combat and naval combat skills as it pertains to infantry. Marines are held to higher physical standards than any other branch. Marines are generally tasked for more strenuous jobs than the Army. Most importantly however, every Marine is a rifleman. Allow me to elaborate, every Marine cook, administrator, custodian, accountant, supply officer, every single Marine, must qualify with a M16A4 service rifle in a way dictated by the standards of combat. This means that no matter who he is, what his job is, every single Marine can effectively engage and kill his enemy in a standard deemed proficient by the old commandant of the Marine Corps, General Lejeune who made said policy.

fair play to them, tough standards.

enlisting in the services, army in particular, is to some people within the age range considered a way out of a tough life or if they feel they have nothing to lose. now i know the marines wouldnt accept just anyone, but what do you think about that tripoli?

im just interested to know if thats true or not from anyone elses point of view

Quote from: Pippin on April 11, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
fair play to them, tough standards.

enlisting in the services, army in particular, is to some people within the age range considered a way out of a tough life or if they feel they have nothing to lose. now i know the marines wouldnt accept just anyone, but what do you think about that tripoli?

im just interested to know if thats true or not from anyone elses point of view

Marines do accept just anyone (with exception to those with physical disabilities and medical conditions that would prohibit them from preforming in combat, such as epileptics). Boot camp isn't about selecting people into the Marine Corps, it's about making Marines. They break a person down and then rebuild them in a way that would suit them in combat. Having what it takes to be a Marine is partially given by god (standard health) and the rest is given in training by the Corps, it doesn't matter if you are 5ft 7in and 120 lbs, they will feed you more and build up your muscular strength, or if you are 5ft 8in and 290lbs, they will feed you less and make you run a lot. They make you into a Marine, you aren't selected for it.

makes sense, build your army how you see fit, your very inspiring man haha :)

dogs to loose when war is waged

 That comes from the nickname that Marines earned at the battle of belleau wood in France during WW1. One German Soldier wrote back to his family and said that the soldiers he faced were not ordinary soldiers, but dogs from hell sent to carry away the souls of his comrades, he was referring to the Marines. Ever since Marines have been know as Devil Dogs. (and Navy Corpsman as Devil Docs)

There are a lot of interesting stories from ww1 regarding European reactions to American soldiers. Hooting and hollering and well fed giants among men, as excited to kill a man as they were anything else.

That lingering image is part of how the image of Americans today developed.

 Yes, we developed quite a reputation in that war didn't we?

This would normally be a place for a tirade about the condition of the war at the time but there is little point.

~patriotism~

~sedition~

~idontgetit~

how long is a marines training?

Quote from: Pippin on April 11, 2012, 04:00:16 PM
~idontgetit~

how long is a marines training?

13 weeks for boot camp + infantry training + service school. about 5 months I think total.

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 02:10:02 PM
Ha, obviously bumper stickers is an example in it's most insignificant form. The kinship is displayed at it's best on the battlefield. In combat you must come to the realization that no matter what you do, how hard you try, or how few mistakes you make, you could still die. It's comforting to know that the worlds most advanced killing machine is sitting next to you in the mud with an M16A4 service rifle. You can rest a little easier in your foxhole knowing that the Marine next to you would willingly give his life to save yours. You can see this illustrated in every Marine who has been awarded a medal for valor in combat. If you were to ask that Marine what made him do it or call him a hero he would be confused, thus being that every single Marine that's ever lived would have done the same in his situation. I'm not trying to downplay his heroism, only up play that of every Marine and Navy Corpsman that's ever been in combat.

I am asking because I'm genuinely interested in why you are so passionate about joining the marines. This answer leaves me wondering. You originally expressed the kinship you felt with marines, but here you describe kinship marines feel for each other. You are not yet a marine, so you are not a part of their family. What is it that currently inspires you to become a member of the marines?

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 08:23:37 PM

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 02:10:02 PM
Ha, obviously bumper stickers is an example in it's most insignificant form. The kinship is displayed at it's best on the battlefield. In combat you must come to the realization that no matter what you do, how hard you try, or how few mistakes you make, you could still die. It's comforting to know that the worlds most advanced killing machine is sitting next to you in the mud with an M16A4 service rifle. You can rest a little easier in your foxhole knowing that the Marine next to you would willingly give his life to save yours. You can see this illustrated in every Marine who has been awarded a medal for valor in combat. If you were to ask that Marine what made him do it or call him a hero he would be confused, thus being that every single Marine that's ever lived would have done the same in his situation. I'm not trying to downplay his heroism, only up play that of every Marine and Navy Corpsman that's ever been in combat.

I am asking because I'm genuinely interested in why you are so passionate about joining the marines. This answer leaves me wondering. You originally expressed the kinship you felt with marines, but here you describe kinship marines feel for each other. You are not yet a marine, so you are not a part of their family. What is it that currently inspires you to become a member of the marines?

Just that, to be a part of that family. Too know that in a war (regardless of if you believe in it or not) I will be the first to fight for whatever cause it is, be it our freedom, safety, other peoples freedom, or anything else that the people of the united states call on me to do.

Why are you looking for a family?

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 08:37:24 PM
Why are you looking for a family?

Lol, I laughed really hard at that. Aren't you're being very psychoanalytic today. that's cute.

But I'll play along. I think it's because my dad abandoned me when I was 3, my mom only feeds me when I'm good, and she makes me sleep outside in the barn. Other than that I'd say I had a pretty normal childhood, well except that I was breast fed until I was 13. Oh and that one time I killed my puppy just to watch her bleed.

lol. OK, now the serious answer pls.

I'm sure everyone is looking for a great community, but the fact that the marines are a community that shares a kinship does not in-of-itself explain your desire to join.

 Ok, fair enough. I'd don't really need a family, I just want a bigger one. It's a lot closer than a biological family because its forged in the fires of combat, not through blood relation. It's something that is difficult to describe. I'd suggest that you watch the HBO miniseries "Pacific" to get a small grasp on what it means to be a Marine. They do as good a job as one could at taking all those emotions and putting them in a visual form in an attempt to communicate them to others. It's a difficult thing to do.

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 08:46:16 PM

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 08:37:24 PM
Why are you looking for a family?

Lol, I laughed really hard at that. Aren't you're being very psychoanalytic today. that's cute.

But I'll play along. I think it's because my dad abandoned me when I was 3, my mom only feeds me when I'm good, and she makes me sleep outside in the barn. Other than that I'd say I had a pretty normal childhood, well except that I was breast fed until I was 13. Oh and that one time I killed my puppy just to watch her bleed.

At first, I thought you were serious  :o. I only cried at the puppy thought, though. I love animals  :-\

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 08:53:46 PM
Ok, fair enough. I'd don't really need a family, I just want a bigger one. It's a lot closer than a biological family because its forged in the fires of combat, not through blood relation. It's something that is difficult to describe. I'd suggest that you watch the HBO miniseries "Pacific" to get a small grasp on what it means to be a Marine. They do as good a job as one could at taking all those emotions and putting them in a visual form in an attempt to communicate them to others. It's a difficult thing to do.

When you watch things like "Pacific," what is it specifically that is appealing to you? The part I don't get is how you overcome your fears and reservations for this. Why are you willing to give up your future to join a team of killers?

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 09:26:00 PM

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 08:53:46 PM
Ok, fair enough. I'd don't really need a family, I just want a bigger one. It's a lot closer than a biological family because its forged in the fires of combat, not through blood relation. It's something that is difficult to describe. I'd suggest that you watch the HBO miniseries "Pacific" to get a small grasp on what it means to be a Marine. They do as good a job as one could at taking all those emotions and putting them in a visual form in an attempt to communicate them to others. It's a difficult thing to do.

When you watch things like "Pacific," what is it specifically that is appealing to you? The part I don't get is how you overcome your fears and reservations for this. Why are you willing to give up your future to join a team of killers?

Killing is necessary to ensure freedom. Now granted the current war we are in isn't tied directly to protecting our freedom, but it is our safety. I fear that there will come a time again were killing is necessary for our freedom, and last time it was, the Marine Corps did all the killing.

QuoteMedal of Honor recipients by branch:
Army   2411
Navy   747
Marines   298
Air Force   18
Coast Guard   1

You really should give the army a bit more credit. Ever heard of Audie Murphy or Roy Benavidez? Natural born super-soldiers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7968BbMnU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7968BbMnU) check that video out. Stunning story.

OK, so you want to protect the USA, and you want to do it by joining a fellowship of killers in kinship.

You say you fear there will once again be a time when killing is the only option to protect the USA. What is this future threat?

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 10:09:41 PM
OK, so you want to protect the USA, and you want to do it by joining a fellowship of killers in kinship.

You say you fear there will once again be a time when killing is the only option to protect the USA. What is this future threat?

I'm not predicting this, I fear it. Therefor i don't think anyone specific will be a threat, I only fear that someone will.

@Ungatt Trunn II, I like the Army. They are good at what they do, the Marine Corps is just better at killing people, and that's what counts in combat.

Your irrational fear of future threats to your "freedom" make me think that you are somewhat of a paranoid person. Yet you are willing to go to the front line of fighting this supposed threat, and risk getting killed.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so I'm just gonna go with my original instinct I had when I first saw this topic and assume you are a crazy person.

 Yes, many people who know me well (and many who don't) would concur with the opinion that I am crazy.

But what specifically makes you fear it? What kind of threat is it that requires killing machines? Why have you chosen this path over another, that's what I'm asking.

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 11, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
But what specifically makes you fear it? What kind of threat is it that requires killing machines? Why have you chosen this path over another, that's what I'm asking.

there has been such threats in the past, to our country and to countless others. I've already explained why the Marine Corps appeals to me yet you continue to ask me why I chose such a path. Do my answers not satisfy you? Maybe you too should just accept the notion that I'm crazy.

QuoteWhen you watch things like "Pacific," what is it specifically that is appealing to you? The part I don't get is how you overcome your fears and reservations for this. Why are you willing to give up your future to join a team of killers?

Peace, as a member of a family with a long and distinguished record of service in my nations military, I object most strongly to your reference to soldiers, be they marines or otherwise, as "killers". They are soldiers, not killers. Shores of Tripoli is clearly nuts, and has no real understanding of what it means to be a Marine.

its funny how someone comes along with a real passion and all he hears is "your nuts" and general comments like that and its from older members

lol. All he hears? This thread is 8 pages long and most of it was talk about a coup and which states have the freest gun control.

I am sorry if those things harm your liberal sensibilities.

~sedition again~

I was just saying that pippin's post was dumb.

@Volkov: he spent the first half of the topic talking about how the marines are dogs from hell unleashed to kill. I am asking him why he would want to join a group like that. i recognize the difference between that and the actual marines (who kill people all the time, btw, you just feel good about it because its been vaguely justified politically).

@Ungatt: the word liberal is used liberally. But the fact that you are just going to use it as an insult for anyone who wants gun control tells me that you are not willing to reason, or even challenge your own world view with a different perspective. BTW, how's glen becks new show, do you like it as much as when he was still sane enough for Fox?

@Tripoli: you're just a kid. i remember telling people i was crazy just because i hadnt matured enough to deeply challenge my decisions. I want to (actually i just want you to) examjne what makes you want to go off and join a team of killing dogs from hell. There are tons of tiny little things that influence the decisions you make. Its not because you're crazy, it's because something is influencing you.

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 12, 2012, 07:38:35 AM
I want to (actually i just want you to) examjne what makes you want to go off and join a team of killing dogs from hell.

You must be a pacifist. I would join myself if I wasn't too lazy.

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 12, 2012, 07:38:35 AM
tells me that you are not willing to reason, or even challenge your own world view with a different perspective.

This is ironic

Quote
@Tripoli: you're just a kid. i remember telling people i was crazy just because i hadnt matured enough to deeply challenge my decisions. I want to (actually i just want you to) examjne what makes you want to go off and join a team of killing dogs from hell. There are tons of tiny little things that influence the decisions you make. Its not because you're crazy, it's because something is influencing you.

You sure he's "just a kid"? He said he was enlisting within the next year and has a jeep. He probably isn't much younger than us...

Does all of your information on the Marines come from call of duty/movies and stuff?


I was always under the impression that the army was about protecting and defending ones country rather than endless killing - obviously killing may sometimes have to be part of the job, but it's something to be avoided unless necessary. You seem to be specifically into the killing aspect. I find that a bit odd.

Pacifist, or just somebody who wants people to grow up into responsible, helpful citizens of the world. I want my fellow earthlings to solve their problems intelligently, and yes peacefully. Killing people is easy. Turning a tiny percentage of the poorest people in the Amerian population into to well armed soldiers is a crude and lazy way to solve your problems. It's also unrealistec. It turns out every simplified, clear-cut war you percieve is actually complicated, nuanced, and detailed. And this is not disrespect toward those soldes, nor tripoli. i know they do something challenging, and sacrifice themselves for your safety.  But sacrifice some of your time to challenge why we send men and women to die.

@Shadow: Oops, you have a lil bit of ignorance showin'. Ya, right there on your lip - no the other side... Actually nvm, maybe you won't find it. If you genuinely believe that being Christian somehow means I am never challenging my world view then you are more interested in attacking my beliefs then you are in understanding who I am. It kind of hurts my feelings actually... i try not to take it pesonally, because it seems to me that as soon as somebody unappolagetically claims to  e Christian, you size them up for a nice little box they can fit in. Ya can't box me in man, I'm unpredictable!!

I don't believe your being Christian has anything to do with that Peace, I am basing that on your argument style here on forums. But I guess that was a little mean =/

@everybody, obviously I don't have an understanding of what it's like to be a Marine. I'm not one. It's a difficult thing to understand, and even more difficult to explain. You have all been asking me to explain something that I don't fully understand, obviously I'm going to struggle.

@Peace, yea I am a kid but I'm enlisting in November. Maybe in a year or 2 I could explain that to you. 

Maybe in a year or two you'll have PTSD, a drinking problem, and things you wish you could forget. Maybe you'll be dead. These are the realities you are facing, and the reason I am urging you to do some soul searching.

There are other ways to defend your country. America needs diplomats, politicians, and news reporting.

You could become a killing machine, or you could become a reporter who exposes the unethical treatment of local populations surrounding foreign American mining operations. You could be a force for good by pursuing justice, and perhaps investigating some of the reasons there are people around the world who want to do your nation harm.

HAHAHAHA you almost had me until you said news reporting. Oh wait...no you didn't. But still! News!! HHaaahaha, no such thing as news. Those Commies at MSNBC and CNN destroyed it. hahahhah.

How does one go about killing news reporting. What prevents (other then your apparent lack of sanity) you from going out and conducting a news investigation of your own?

 If CNN and MSNBC want to conduct what they call "news investigations", people watch it, and they make money off it, then more power to them. I however enjoy a rather stale boring straight forward non opinionated story that you cant find at CNN, MSNBC, or Fox. That's what I call news, but that died some time ago.

I still don't get how you can say it's dead. Obviously you can still go ahead and conduct long-form reporting yourself. Who's stopping you? Obviously you can find a way to make important information more appealing then presenting it as "stale boring straight [and] forward." BTW, when did we ever have non-opinionated news? What is this weird ideal you've constructed in your brain?

 Obviously I'm being idealistic, News pisses me off therefor I'd hate to make a career out of it.

This is a very weird conversation.

 You like my new signature and avatar Peace? I did it for you....

Quote@Ungatt: the word liberal is used liberally. But the fact that you are just going to use it as an insult for anyone who wants gun control tells me that you are not willing to reason, or even challenge your own world view with a different perspective. BTW, how's glen becks new show, do you like it as much as when he was still sane enough for Fox?

To start with, it's spelled GLENN BECK. If you are so ignorant to the subject which you are bleating out that you cannot add an additional "n" to a name or have the darn decency to check first, perhaps you should refrain from using such generic insults against conservatives. Basically all you did was show me you had no idea what you were talking about and just wanted to make yourself look like the "good guy" because the nature of your wording is so commonly used by people and accepted that it's just viewed as an absolute truth when in the end it is nothing but windbag rhetoric aimed at making yourself out to be the winner.

Furthermore, you go on and on about my concrete beliefs and how I don't have perspective. Who the hell are you to say? You know nothing about me or my life. Maybe my beliefs are so strong because I HAVE seen the other side and I don't like it.

And just for good measure: COMMIE LIBERAL LEFTEST SOCIALIST HIPPIE PARADOX!

COMMIE LIBERAL LEFTEST SOCIALIST HIPPIE PARADOX

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 12, 2012, 03:52:27 PM

Quote@Ungatt: the word liberal is used liberally. But the fact that you are just going to use it as an insult for anyone who wants gun control tells me that you are not willing to reason, or even challenge your own world view with a different perspective. BTW, how's glen becks new show, do you like it as much as when he was still sane enough for Fox?

To start with, it's spelled GLENN BECK. If you are so ignorant to the subject which you are bleating out that you cannot add an additional "n" to a name or have the [darn] decency to check first, perhaps you should refrain from using such generic insults against conservatives. Basically all you did was show me you had no idea what you were talking about and just wanted to make yourself look like the "good guy" because the nature of your wording is so commonly used by people and accepted that it's just viewed as an absolute truth when in the end it is nothing but windbag rhetoric aimed at making yourself out to be the winner.

Furthermore, you go on and on about my concrete beliefs and how I don't have perspective. Who the hell are you to say? You know nothing about me or my life. Maybe my beliefs are so strong because I HAVE seen the other side and I don't like it.

And just for good measure: COMMIE LIBERAL LEFTEST SOCIALIST HIPPIE PARADOX!

I enjoy the rare occasions when you venture outside of spa.

Spa is boring. There's nobody to kill in the spa. (Am I right Peace?)

We really really need +rep on this board.

we also need a chinese guy to say funny stuff. but we dont have that :(

This could branch into a lot of interesting UMD topics, least of which why lots of young people seem to think that killing is an easy and enjoyable thing to do . . . this is something I have never managed to understand

 They don't have internet in China.

I don't think he ever said it was easy nor did he say it would be enjoyable. Thats just reading what you want to read.

---

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 12, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
They don't have internet in China.

They do, it is just heavily censored. Some of us are fighting our own war to help the chinese get around that, but it is important for everyone to remember that people are needed in all roles for all things. The idea that all problems can be solved only one way is naive.

Quote from: Neobaron on April 12, 2012, 04:33:09 PM
I don't think he ever said it was easy nor did he say it would be enjoyable. Thats just reading what you want to read.

I guess it was a bit of a bad assumption, but I don't think it was entirely untrue, at the very least it's not really been explored in this topic; if anything guns (which are the most common method of killing people) have been glorified by Shores of Tripoli amongst others in this topic.

The weapon of modern (physical) war is the gun, and the US has a tradition of gun ownership and gun glorification.

That isn't the same as glorifying killing, and isn't intrinsically bad.

 Yes, I love Guns, Rifles, Pistols, Knives, grenades, and any other efficient delivery method of violence. Violence that can be used to protect your country, your family, or yourself.

Shores, the foreigners might not ~get~ you because you're the first person to ever be so open about these things on this board as far as I know, and I have been here a while.

While the Americans here appreciate your zeal and desire to serve, and completely understand your motivations, these concepts are literally foreign to Sharptooth, Shadow, Ashyra, Gen, and Peace.

That said, you aren't doing yourself any favors by being so blatant, and you're not doing those of us who would otherwise defend you any favors either. I am not patriotic, but I don't much care for it when foreigners look down their noses at us either.

Something you will learn when you enlist is the value of silence and discretion. Make this your first effort in picking that up.

Quote from: Neobaron on April 12, 2012, 04:54:27 PM
The weapon of modern (physical) war is the gun, and the US has a tradition of gun ownership and gun glorification.

That isn't the same as glorifying killing, and isn't intrinsically bad.

Ok, maybe it wasn't the best assumption I've ever made. I just find it strange that the ownership and glorification of something that is only really good for killing is so high in the US.

Admittedly ownership doesn't necessarily equal killing (or glorification of killing) I still find it strange that so many people own guns (and are proud about)

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 12, 2012, 04:56:27 PM
Yes, I love Guns, Rifles, Pistols, Knives, grenades, and any other efficient delivery method of violence. Violence that can be used to protect your country, your family, or yourself.

I'm assuming the first sentence is sarcastic and the second is serious?

Aren't there better methods for protecting your country other than violence? Is protecting your country and family worth it if in the process you destroy other countries and other families?

Quote from: Sharptooh on April 12, 2012, 04:49:33 PM

Quote from: Neobaron on April 12, 2012, 04:33:09 PM
I don't think he ever said it was easy nor did he say it would be enjoyable. Thats just reading what you want to read.

I guess it was a bit of a bad assumption, but I don't think it was entirely untrue, at the very least it's not really been explored in this topic; if anything guns (which are the most common method of killing people) have been glorified by Shores of Tripoli amongst others in this topic.

You aren't making an impossible leap when you assume that Tripoli is excited to kill people. He said he wants to join the marines because they are really good at killing people, and that he can't be bothered with things like "news reporting." This gives you a good idea of where his head is at. You could have worded it better, but I don't think your leaping to any overzealous conclusions here.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 12, 2012, 03:52:27 PM

Quote@Ungatt: the word liberal is used liberally. But the fact that you are just going to use it as an insult for anyone who wants gun control tells me that you are not willing to reason, or even challenge your own world view with a different perspective. BTW, how's glen becks new show, do you like it as much as when he was still sane enough for Fox?

To start with, it's spelled GLENN BECK. If you are so ignorant to the subject which you are bleating out that you cannot add an additional "n" to a name or have the [darn] decency to check first, perhaps you should refrain from using such generic insults against conservatives. Basically all you did was show me you had no idea what you were talking about and just wanted to make yourself look like the "good guy" because the nature of your wording is so commonly used by people and accepted that it's just viewed as an absolute truth when in the end it is nothing but windbag rhetoric aimed at making yourself out to be the winner.

Furthermore, you go on and on about my concrete beliefs and how I don't have perspective. Who the hell are you to say? You know nothing about me or my life. Maybe my beliefs are so strong because I HAVE seen the other side and I don't like it.

And just for good measure: COMMIE LIBERAL LEFTEST SOCIALIST HIPPIE PARADOX!

Well my comment explains how I came to any assumptions I made about you. I don't think saying "you aren't one to reason" qualifies as 'going on and on about your concrete beliefs'.

BTW, spelling Glennn Blecks name wrong does not make anyone indecent, and it doesn't make me look like a "good guy".

QuoteYou aren't making an impossible leap when you assume that Tripoli is excited to kill people. He said he wants to join the marines because they are really good at killing people, and that he can't be bothered with things like "news reporting." This gives you a good idea of where his head is at. You could have worded it better, but I don't think your leaping to any overzealous conclusions here.

Yes you are. There is a difference between a desire to join and protect your country and a desire to actually kill people. His wording in this thread has been mostly to rile you up.

Haha, I love messing with Europeans. Just this morning I ate 3 kittens for my prebreakfast, then for breakfast I had a Democrat! =)

Are you crazy? Did you at least boil it in water first?

I hope you've been immunized.

Quote from: Ungatt Trunn II on April 12, 2012, 07:21:57 PM
Are you crazy? Did you at least boil it in water first?

I hope you've been immunized.

No, I ate him raw. I'm hardcore evil.

Due to the nature of the democrat, a species you consumed, I believe you should be quarantined until we rule out the possibility of infection.

Think before you cannibalize! It could save your life.

 He is now my slave for the afterlife.

LeMat revolver in signature?


Nice. (even if the barrel is a pencil)

Also that's all fine and good but you could become a democrat yourself now that you've been exposed...

just a warning - if you ate his heart then you may have gained his powers (democrat powers)

 Don't worry, I know a guy. He's got enough ant communism pills for the both of us.

QuoteIf guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?

lol, that's a very silly signature. Guns do kill people, and pencils do misspell words. If you took all the pencils away, we wouldn't use them to misspell words. If you took at the guns away, we wouldn't use them to kill each other.

Actually criminals still would.

Criminals would use guns to kill each other if we took all the guns away?

You can't "take guns away". It isn't candy. They are criminals because they do things illegally. They don't follow the law. Outlawing it would simply create a black market and take away a law abiding citizen's ability to defend themselves.

Well that's just not at all the reason why it's silly. Guns are designed to kill, that's their purpose.

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 12, 2012, 06:15:19 PM
Haha, I love messing with Europeans. Just this morning I ate 3 kittens for my prebreakfast, then for breakfast I had a Democrat! =)

It's pretty funny that you think eating kittens would be more offensive than talking about your dream to become an ultimate human killing machine.

 Ug is right

lol, Ungatt I never said that we could take all the guns away from criminals. But the argument as to whether we can or not is distinctly different then the one Trip's signature is addressing. Trip's sig is arguing against the "guns kill people" slogan that is used to argue against relaxed gun control. If his response was "ya but you can't disarm criminals" then that would be an OK answer (obviously then you have to start going into all the problems of the criminal justice system, economic problems, etc, suddently life is complicated) instead it belittles this argument by suggesting that "people kill people," just like how people are the one's who misspell words. It's simplistic; you wouldn't solve spelling errors by taking away pencils, right? So why should you solve gun-related murder by taking away the guns? It's a stupid argument.

(I am trying to finish my essay and don't have time to make the above paragraph coherent. anyone care to translate?)

Better not be plotting to take my guns away...
grumble.
Or whatever you're going on about.

Criminals would use pencils to kill each other

we should have an illegal gun smuggling party at pa's house just cause

Quote from: Peace Alliance@Volkov: he spent the first half of the topic talking about how the marines are dogs from hell unleashed to kill. I am asking him why he would want to join a group like that. i recognize the difference between that and the actual marines (who kill people all the time, btw, you just feel good about it because its been vaguely justified politically).

Nothing about politics, please. Regardless of what the justification is for the war, Marines only kill when given a lawful order to do so, and only according to the specified rules of engagement. I fully recognize the fact that Marines have to kill people in order to carry out their duty and orders, but they do so as disciplined soldiers, not as wild killing machines. A soldier or Marine who kills someone in the line of duty is no different from a police officer who has to kill in the line of their duty.

Actually Peace, that signature holds a ton of meaning. Guns are not evil. People can use them for evil things, but the gun itself is not evil. Also most people that own guns (at least in the US) don't own them for killing people, but for sporting, such as hunting and just shooting targets.

Then why do they sell live ammo for handguns, or machine guns?

Quote from: Rakefur on April 14, 2012, 06:37:30 PM
Actually Peace, that signature holds a ton of meaning. Guns are not evil. People can use them for evil things, but the gun itself is not evil. Also most people that own guns (at least in the US) don't own them for killing people, but for sporting, such as hunting and just shooting targets.

While it's true that the gun is only as problematic at the hand holding it, the comparison to pencils is not a reasonable one, for the simple reason that a gun is made as a weapon, for the purpose of destruction. The fact that other objects can cause problems when not used as intended is irrelevant, since we are concerned with the primary function here. This is what Peace was trying to say.

Quote
Nothing about politics, please. Regardless of what the justification is for the war, Marines only kill when given a lawful order to do so, and only according to the specified rules of engagement. I fully recognize the fact that Marines have to kill people in order to carry out their duty and orders, but they do so as disciplined soldiers, not as wild killing machines. A soldier or Marine who kills someone in the line of duty is no different from a police officer who has to kill in the line of their duty.

I would argue that the difference is that a police officer kills in defense, whereas a marine is often than the aggressor.

You guys are bad at comparisons.

Quote from: Peace Alliance on April 14, 2012, 06:55:50 PM
Then why do they sell live ammo for handguns, or machine guns?

People hunt/shoot targets with those as well. There's entire competitions and courses based around handguns. The same is true for "machine guns" which by that I assume you mean a firearm that shoots fully automatic.

 Yes, I frequently participate in local rifle and pistol competitions. It's little league and I'm not really that great.

QuoteI would argue that the difference is that a police officer kills in defense, whereas a marine is often than the aggressor.

I would argue that is horse[poop]. The guy a Marine kills is trying just as hard to kill him, and he is killing the other guy as much for self defense as any other reason. Further reason why that is horse[poop]: SWAT teams.

Wow. I agree with Volkov. Well done.

 The military is simply self defense on a large scale. The national scale.

Self defence like when you break into someone else's house and try to fix their problems.

Quote from: Gen. Volkov on April 15, 2012, 12:47:22 AM

QuoteI would argue that the difference is that a police officer kills in defense, whereas a marine is often than the aggressor.

I would argue that is horse[poop]. The guy a Marine kills is trying just as hard to kill him, and he is killing the other guy as much for self defense as any other reason. Further reason why that is horse[poop]: SWAT teams.

I didn't say self defense, I said defense (of country/civilians/others from an unprovoked aggressor). A SWAT team sent in on a police action is still in civilian defense, at least within the US, and police officers aren't used directly in military actions in other countries except in token roles within the military structure. For eg, anywhere in the middle east right now, the US is the aggressor at this point. Whether or not the soldier is fighting to defend himself at the time doesn't change this.

If I attack someone and he defends himself, I can't kill him and claim I did it in self-defense.

QuoteThe military is simply self defense on a large scale. The national scale.

Ideally this would be true, but in the case of the US, it simply isn't.

Quote from: Genevieve on April 15, 2012, 04:48:22 AM
Self defence like when you break into someone else's house and try to fix their problems.

How about when somebody crashes a plane into your house and kills your family, then you go kick there butt so they can't do it to your neighbors.

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 15, 2012, 10:56:27 AM

Quote from: Genevieve on April 15, 2012, 04:48:22 AM
Self defence like when you break into someone else's house and try to fix their problems.

How about when somebody crashes a plane into your house and kills your family, then you go kick there [Behind] so they can't do it to your neighbors.

No I think:

How about we go and kill them (and aggravate their neighbors) to try and stop them, but only succeed in angering them further and allowing lots of people to die needlessly?

This is even assuming Gen was talking about that, you realise how many US troops are stationed in other countries? What business does the US have intervening in their affairs?

International security. We're only stationed in rogue nations or countries with large amounts of terrorists.

...That's pretty far from the truth. Japan, for instance.

Quote from: Rakefur on April 15, 2012, 11:37:02 AM
International security. We're only stationed in rogue nations or countries with large amounts of terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments)

QuoteThe military of the United States is deployed in more than 150 countries around the world

I stand corrected. But as you can see, the counties with the most troops are either allies, trade partners, or (rogue nations or countries with large amounts of terrorists)

 German for example has a world class artillery training facility. Almost every country in the world trains their artillery there. Its mostly Marines stationed in Japan (Okinawa), they are there as a rapid response force in the pacific. I believe it the 12th MEU (not for sure) that can deploy to anywhere in the pacific world from Okinawa. When Japan attacked us in WW2 it took us 6 months before we could strike back at Guadalcanal, now with rapid communications and forward deployed units those days are over. We came very close to losing everything in WW2, and most people feared just that in those early days of the Pacific campaign. All those troops are is a wide spread defensive net, the wider the net, the safer we are sitting on our computers at home.

While that may true, don't pretend that the US is welcome there (in many of the countries they are deployed), or that it is in the interest of the international community so much as your own.

 When were are talking about national security, I don't particularly care rather we are welcome or not. To me the only feelings that matter are American's feelings.

Yes, that sums up rather nicely the problem that a lot of the non-American world has with Americans in general.

Quote from: Shadow on April 15, 2012, 01:10:38 PM
Yes, that sums up rather nicely the problem that a lot of the non-American world has with Americans in general.

Yea, I understand why they are disgruntled. I still don't really care. If they want me to care then they can emigrate to America.

I understand. I am making the point that your stationing is not for international security, it is for national security, so don't attempt to justify interference from that perspective if your attitude is not actually one of caring for the security of others.

In other words, be honest about your motives when they are transparent, or you just look bad ^_^

 Ok fair enough.

QuoteI didn't say self defense, I said defense (of country/civilians/others from an unprovoked aggressor). A SWAT team sent in on a police action is still in civilian defense, at least within the US, and police officers aren't used directly in military actions in other countries except in token roles within the military structure. For eg, anywhere in the middle east right now, the US is the aggressor at this point. Whether or not the soldier is fighting to defend himself at the time doesn't change this.

Again, horse[poop]. The US is only fighting in one place in the Middle East right now, and that's Afghanistan. We invaded that country in response to the 9/11 attacks, so we are defending ourselves from Al Qaeda's aggression. Furthermore, you are comparing two different things here. The police are acting on a local level, and even though they are acting in immediate defense, they could be defined as being on the offense at a higher organizational level, eg. a police department that assists in the War on Drugs. However, I think in either case they are acting in defense of their communities and the country. The same holds true for the Marines, who even when they are on the technical offense, are doing so because it will ultimately ensure the defense of the US from foreign aggressors.

QuoteIf I attack someone and he defends himself, I can't kill him and claim I did it in self-defense.

What if your attack is in response to his earlier attack? Or what if you believe your life is in imminent danger from this person if you don't attack?

QuoteThis is even assuming Gen was talking about that, you realise how many US troops are stationed in other countries? What business does the US have intervening in their affairs?

99% of the time, those other countries want us to be there. The countries that don't want us there, we generally leave. Japan, for example, has given up anything but a token military, in exchange for a guarantee of national defense from the US. Or South Korea, who we also have a defense agreement with. Hell, name a country and US troops are either stationed there as part of a defense agreement or as part of Peacekeeping/Observers force. We have become the world's policeman, history forced us into that role after WW2 and the end of the Cold War. In order to ensure our own security, we have to ensure world stability.

Quote from: Gen. Volkov on April 15, 2012, 02:47:55 PM

QuoteI didn't say self defense, I said defense (of country/civilians/others from an unprovoked aggressor). A SWAT team sent in on a police action is still in civilian defense, at least within the US, and police officers aren't used directly in military actions in other countries except in token roles within the military structure. For eg, anywhere in the middle east right now, the US is the aggressor at this point. Whether or not the soldier is fighting to defend himself at the time doesn't change this.

Again, horse[poop]. The US is only fighting in one place in the Middle East right now, and that's Afghanistan. We invaded that country in response to the 9/11 attacks, so we are defending ourselves from Al Qaeda's aggression. Furthermore, you are comparing two different things here. The police are acting on a local level, and even though they are acting in immediate defense, they could be defined as being on the offense at a higher organizational level, eg. a police department that assists in the War on Drugs. However, I think in either case they are acting in defense of their communities and the country. The same holds true for the Marines, who even when they are on the technical offense, are doing so because it will ultimately ensure the defense of the US from foreign aggressors.

So pre-emptive strike = self-defense to you? Whatever helps you sleep I guess..

Quote

QuoteIf I attack someone and he defends himself, I can't kill him and claim I did it in self-defense.

What if your attack is in response to his earlier attack? Or what if you believe your life is in imminent danger from this person if you don't attack?

Try that one in court: "I attacked him and killed him in revenge for him attacking me earlier", or "I was pretty sure he would try to kill me later, so I killed him first". Good luck.

Quote

QuoteThis is even assuming Gen was talking about that, you realise how many US troops are stationed in other countries? What business does the US have intervening in their affairs?

99% of the time, those other countries want us to be there. The countries that don't want us there, we generally leave. Japan, for example, has given up anything but a token military, in exchange for a guarantee of national defense from the US. Or South Korea, who we also have a defense agreement with. Hell, name a country and US troops are either stationed there as part of a defense agreement or as part of Peacekeeping/Observers force. We have become the world's policeman, history forced us into that role after WW2 and the end of the Cold War. In order to ensure our own security, we have to ensure world stability.

[/quote]
99%, really? Of those 150 countries, 148 of them want you there? Might want to recount. As for the rest of it, as you would say, horse poo.

QuoteSo pre-emptive strike = self-defense to you? Whatever helps you sleep I guess..

AFGHANISTAN. How in the name of Dawkins do you see a response to an attack as "pre-emptive"?

QuoteTry that one in court: "I attacked him and killed him in revenge for him attacking me earlier", or "I was pretty sure he would try to kill me later, so I killed him first". Good luck.

I'd win on the second one. Indiana has a "stand your ground" law, which says that if you feel threatened, your justified in putting a bullet into someone. The first I might win, depending on the exact circumstances. Can't draw exact analogies, but if I got suckerpunched at a bar and then got up and beat the other guy to death, I doubt I'd be convicted of anything worse than assault and battery.

Quote99%, really? Of those 150 countries, 148 of them want you there? Might want to recount. As for the rest of it, as you would say, horse [poop].

149 actually, Afghanistan doesn't want us there, but I don't have much sympathy there.

QuoteAFGHANISTAN. How in the name of Dawkins do you see a response to an attack as "pre-emptive"?

IRAQ? You're not there anymore, technically, but you were, and the point remains.

But yes, in Afghanistan, you invaded a country over a fringe group. Many of the people killed in Afghanistan had nothing to do with the attack.

Quote
I'd win on the second one. Indiana has a "stand your ground" law, which says that if you feel threatened, your justified in putting a bullet into someone. The first I might win, depending on the exact circumstances. Can't draw exact analogies, but if I got suckerpunched at a bar and then got up and beat the other guy to death, I doubt I'd be convicted of anything worse than assault and battery.

No, the first one involves an attack, then a period of non-aggression, then you attacking back. You wouldn't win that. Otherwise it is straight up self-defense and it would not apply. The second, well, if you really have such a ridiculous law then you deserve the results, frankly.

Anyway, you know you'd lose the first one outright, don't pull a volkov and argue this one because you feel like you have to for some reason.

Quote149 actually, Afghanistan doesn't want us there, but I don't have much sympathy there.

... right lol

 Iraq was a mistake on a political level, the nation was lead to believe that Sudam had weapons of mass destruction and was threatening to use them on the west. We did cause harm their and that was wrong, but that blame is on the politicians who lied about the threat level of Iraq.

Quote from: Rakefur on April 15, 2012, 12:30:16 PM
I stand corrected. But as you can see, the counties with the most troops are either allies, trade partners, or (rogue nations or countries with large amounts of terrorists)

That's pretty much the whole gambit then isn't it...

Your country is not innocent internationally. Sorry to brake it to you guys, but you're not exactly Earths best friend.

All right Peace. What's your perfect plan to replace all military "killing machines"? How would you go about it? Why on earth are you discouraging this guy from joining the marines?

Also: Take a look at this US Marine (i.e. killing machine)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqycn4-R8SIn70ci_CHNHsID9OkuBYPg_QKV_5ldATO3dL3KZs)

 That's an actor.

here's a real Marine:

(http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_M-32_40mm_lg.jpg)

Quote from: Rakefur on April 15, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
All right Peace. What's your perfect plan to replace all military "killing machines"? How would you go about it? Why on earth are you discouraging this guy from joining the marines?

Let's say I'm just pulling a Neo here, and I'm asking Trip to critically examine his choices. HE was the one who called them killing machines. 

Ultimately I am discouraging him because, and my probing questions have confirmed this, it sounds an awful lot like he's been swept up in patriotic propaganda.

 They ARE killing machines, the Marine Corps mission is to excel in the proper application of violence in a manner that exemplifies professional efficiency at killing any enemy of the United States of America. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe you would care to explain.

I think Peace is wanting you to question why you want to become one of these killing machines.

But I think it all just comes down to a level of nationalism that us non-americans just can't comprehend.

Quote from: ShadowIRAQ? You're not there anymore, technically, but you were, and the point remains.

But yes, in Afghanistan, you invaded a country over a fringe group. Many of the people killed in Afghanistan had nothing to do with the attack.

We invaded a country that aid, abetted, and gave outright support to that "fringe group". Since the Taliban aided and abetted Al Qaeda, they had to go. I'm sorry for the people who died in the War in Afghanistan who had nothing to do with that, but I still don't think there was a real alternative to taking down Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and their support network in the country, namely the Taliban.

Bringing up Iraq doesn't autowin you the argument Shadow. You said "anywhere in the middle east right now". Since we aren't in Iraq anymore, that argument is invalid. Don't pull a Shadow and try to passively aggressively logic chop your way out of making a demonstrably untrue statement.

QuoteNo, the first one involves an attack, then a period of non-aggression, then you attacking back. You wouldn't win that. Otherwise it is straight up self-defense and it would not apply. The second, well, if you really have such a ridiculous law then you deserve the results, frankly.

If that's how you want to define it, then yeah, I'd lose. But this is geopolitics Shadow, not the legal system. The US has no recourse, no policeman it can turn to and say, "That guy stabbed me". As for the second, we do have such a law, and personally, I don't think it's entirely ridiculous. But that's just me, I could be wrong.

QuoteAnyway, you know you'd lose the first one outright, don't pull a volkov and argue this one because you feel like you have to for some reason.

I'd lose under your set of conditions, of course I may see the analogy differently.

Quote... right lol

Yes, I am right. LOL.

Quote from: Shores of TripoliThey ARE killing machines, the Marine Corps mission is to excel in the proper application of violence in a manner that exemplifies professional efficiency at killing any enemy of the United States of America. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe you would care to explain.

OK dude, I say this because ultimately, I am on your side, but Marines are not "killing machines". What they are, are highly trained, highly disciplined soldiers who will carry out their duty to their utmost. If that involves killing an enemy of the US, they will do so quickly and efficiently, and move on to their objective. If it involves something else, they will do that too, also quickly and efficiently. They are not undisciplined killers, or killing machines, they are Marines. If you want to call them anything other than Marines, I think warrior best fits them. Because they are collectively, some of the best [darn] warriors this planet has yet seen, and certainly the most effective large scale fighting force in the history of warfare. SEALs and Delta may outclass them on a personal or small unit level, but nothing outclasses the effectiveness of the entire Marine Corps.

That said, I, and the other Americans on this site, fully understand and respect your desire to become a Marine. I thought about joining the service myself, awhile back. Still might.

Quote from: GenevieveBut I think it all just comes down to a level of nationalism that us non-americans just can't comprehend.

I don't think it's really nationalism, so much as a desire to give back. Ask not what your country can do for you, etc.

Quote from: Gen. Volkov on April 16, 2012, 03:02:45 AM
I don't think it's really nationalism, so much as a desire to give back. Ask not what your country can do for you, etc.

But what you can do for your country. Exactly.

It's nationalism.

@Lucy, I have argued about the ethnocentricity (so how much they think the world revolves around their culture) of a lot of the things said by Americans on these forums. There does not seem to be any hope.


It's funny that you are asking me why I don't like war. It's shocking how perverse your ideology must be when it treats war as sacred. It is dirty, tragic, aweful, and it ought to be avoided. I didn't start posting in this topic because I wanted to argue that - in most of the world this is understood. But if you really want me to start talking about why I am so 'anti-war' I can do that. Apparently I'm the guy on these forums who blows your minds with all this talk about love and peace... I don't necessarily want to have some silly debate about it though, and this isn't UMD. So here's a video of one of my heroes (this time not Jesus, promise).

I don't believe anyone said anything about you being anti-war.

I want to know why you are anti-Marines.

Never said I was. In fact, if you look at my posts in this topic you should recognize that what I was leading up to was my criticism of the war-propagandized mentality that trip seems to have. I was trying to get him to consider other solutions to problems. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with marines, it's a problem with an ideology.

Quote from: Gen. Volkov on April 16, 2012, 03:02:45 AM


OK dude, I say this because ultimately, I am on your side, but Marines are not "killing machines". What they are, are highly trained, highly disciplined soldiers who will carry out their duty to their utmost. If that involves killing an enemy of the US, they will do so quickly and efficiently, and move on to their objective. If it involves something else, they will do that too, also quickly and efficiently. They are not undisciplined killers, or killing machines, they are Marines. If you want to call them anything other than Marines, I think warrior best fits them. Because they are collectively, some of the best [darn] warriors this planet has yet seen, and certainly the most effective large scale fighting force in the history of warfare. SEALs and Delta may outclass them on a personal or small unit level, but nothing outclasses the effectiveness of the entire Marine Corps.

That said, I, and the other Americans on this site, fully understand and respect your desire to become a Marine. I thought about joining the service myself, awhile back. Still might.

I disagree, I think killing machine is a great compliment to a Marine. There job is to kill, and to say that they are so good at there job that they have it down to a level comparable to a machine, is in my eyes a compliment.

Quote from: Shores of TripoliI disagree, I think killing machine is a great compliment to a Marine. There job is to kill, and to say that they are so good at there job that they have it down to a level comparable to a machine, is in my eyes a compliment.

Ah, there is your confusion. A soldiers job, a Marines job is not to kill. Their job is to follow the lawful orders of their superiors, which may or may not involve killing. There are more Marines who never fired a shot in anger than there are Marines who did, and even fewer still Marines who have actually killed someone. The Marines have a bit less on the back end than the rest of the services, that is to say, the support network any military organization requires to do its job. The Navy does a lot of the stuff the Marines would otherwise have to do for themselves, but there are still a very large number of Marines who never saw combat during their time in the service.

Quote from: GenevieveBut what you can do for your country. Exactly.

Well, maybe civic nationalism, but it's not nationalism as Europeans know the word. There is no xenophobia involved, no sense of a shared ethnic heritage. A certain amount of patriotism, to be sure, because Americans are proud to be American, in general, but we are such a large and diverse country that there could never be the kind nationalism here that was present in Europe during the middle of the last century.

Quote from: Peace Alliance
@Lucy, I have argued about the ethnocentricity (so how much they think the world revolves around their culture) of a lot of the things said by Americans on these forums. There does not seem to be any hope.

You're full of crap. Seriously. Do you realize just how many ethnic groups live in the US? Canadians, in comparison to the US, are a completely homogenous culture. The US is a nation of 300 million people, we have citizens that come from literally every other country in the world. There is no "American ethnic group". There are three major ethnic groupings in the US, whites, blacks, and hispanics, and within each group, there are yet more subdivisions. For example, I have Polish, German, Irish, English, and Scottish heritage, and my cultural background is completely different from someone with Italian or Greek heritage. There is something of an American national identity, and people from every ethnic grouping do take pride in being American, but there is no American ethnic group, and certainly no ethnocentricity.

Oh, and while I acknowledge that many Americans think that the world revolves around our culture, that's only due a century of being the most powerful and influential nation on the planet. You cannot deny the influence our culture has on everyone elses. Our pop stars are the worlds pop stars, our blockbuster movies are the world's blockbuster movies. You can find kids in almost any country wearing Levi jeans and t-shirts with American pop culture stuff on them. English is the international language of science and business because the US prominence in those areas. (Well, the British started that trend in business, but in science the international language was German for quite awhile.) The world doesn't revolve around our culture, but it certainly is heavily influenced by it.

 Killing in anger and killing detached is still killing just the same.

Summary:

A complete misinterpretation of the word ethnocentrism... Followed by a very wonderful explanation: 'Americans think they are the center of the universe because we so totally are'

Quote from: Shores of TripoliKilling in anger and killing detached is still killing just the same.

I think you misunderstood my point. Firing a weapon "in anger" has nothing to do with the emotional state of the person. It means whether the weapon was fired on the battlefield or not. All Marines fire thousands of rounds in training, but only a fraction of those ever fire their weapons on the battlefield, or "in anger".

Quote from: Peace Alliance
A complete misinterpretation of the word ethnocentrism... Followed by a very wonderful explanation: 'Americans think they are the center of the universe because we so totally are'

Nope, don't think so Peace. Unless you define an ethnic group in a different way than the rest of the world. Ethnic nationalism, ethnocentrism applies only when there is a fairly uniform ethnic group. Americans are anything but uniform. Oh, and while you can make fun of it, can you actually deny anything I stated about the US influence on the world?

I'll pull some definitions (and maybe in the process of looking up my definitions I find a more appropriate word) when I get home later.

Quote from: Gen. Volkov on April 16, 2012, 03:48:47 PM
Well, maybe civic nationalism, but it's not nationalism as Europeans know the word. There is no xenophobia involved, no sense of a shared ethnic heritage. A certain amount of patriotism, to be sure, because Americans are proud to be American, in general, but we are such a large and diverse country that there could never be the kind nationalism here that was present in Europe during the middle of the last century.

It is purely nationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism), you are just redefining it on the basis of other examples.

QuoteIt is purely nationalism, you are just redefining it on the basis of other examples.

It's not purely nationalism though. Americans don't generally want their country to advance or whatever at the expense of other countries. There is certainly a goodly amount of patriotism, but I don't think its excessive, and it's not at all based on any sort of ethnic grouping like nationalism in Europe was. It's not xenophobic, and it's not incompatible with the ideals on which this country was founded. If its any sort of nationalism, its liberal or civic nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism

I'm just saying I haven't seen a definition of nationalism that is dependent on ethnic groups, and you are just defining it yourself based on other examples of nationalism that also happen to have associated ethnic conflict.

And I think there is a bit of xenophobia in American culture at the moment re: muslim people and middle easterners in general.

QuoteI'm just saying I haven't seen a definition of nationalism that is dependent on ethnic groups, and you are just defining it yourself based on other examples of nationalism that also happen to have associated ethnic conflict.

That's actually pretty much standard definition of nationalism Lucy. German nationalism was all about the fact that they were German, ditto French nationalism and every other nationalist movement. They all focused in their ethnic group, whether it be German or French or Spanish or Italian or Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism

Quote
And I think there is a bit of xenophobia in American culture at the moment re: muslim people and middle easterners in general.

No, there are people in America who are xenophobic, and they gets lots of airtime because they talk loudly, but most Americans don't care where you are from. We are such a mix that telling a middle easterner from any of another dozen different kinds of people from that area is almost impossible. Perhaps if you are obviously Muslim, as in you wear a burkha or something, you might get hassled a bit more, but given the events of 9/11, I'd be surprised if people weren't at least a little suspicious. Our reaction to Muslims in the post-9/11 world is still pretty mild though. Right after 9/11, it got kind of bad for awhile, but it's calmed down to a great extent by now. It's mostly the talking heads on Fox News that are keeping it alive, though even they are having to apply the defibrillator pretty much daily to do so. Americans just can't sustain any sort of xenophobia long term, we are too diverse, and our citizens have to deal with too many people on a daily basis to form any sort of rigid stereotypes that would allow xenophobia to persist.

The amount of xenophobia Australians display with respect to the asylum seekers, the "boat people" I think you called them, far exceeds any xenophobic tendencies present in the US today.

 Funny that this would come up but I found out that I girl I've known for almost 5 years is Arabic today. She's mixed with so many other races that I never would have guessed.

Dan, your assumption that I wouldn't agree that my country is more xenophobic than yours is painting me as somewhat patriotic myself.

I like that your post denying a level of nationalism in America ended with a "my country is better than yours" comment.

QuoteDan, your assumption that I wouldn't agree that my country is more xenophobic than yours is painting me as somewhat patriotic myself.

This is because comments you have made in this thread have given that impression.

QuoteI like that your post denying a level of nationalism in America ended with a "my country is better than yours" comment.

Actually it was a those who live in glass houses should not throw stones type comment.

Completely apocryphal, blatantly nationalistic, but also relevant and I thought it was funny as hell:

http://www.samscorner.org/?p=1243

I originally saw this on Facebook, as a shared photo from someone, but I can't find it anymore.

That is good. I chuckled. [fake]Then I sang the national anthem and sacrificed a chicken to the glorious union.[/fake]

I agree, this song is awesome. I have it on my I-pod.  I actually wrote a Long Patrol version of this song. Semper Fidelis. 

Quote from: Shores of Tripoli on April 11, 2012, 03:28:21 PM
Yes, we developed quite a reputation in that war didn't we?

Actually in WWII many German soldiers were told by family who were WWI vets to "Be a good soldier and surrender to the first American you see" oh and Shores, Good luck with boot camp.

Boot camp was almost the most fun I ever had.
Start refining your yelling voice now.

Ah, found it:

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/GenVolkov/420186_367988683220864_2066139216_n.jpg)

Haha that's pretty funny.

How do you post those pictures I can't figuer it out?

when you are writing a response, there is a little button under the BOLD symbol which says insert picture.  I believe that you get the source of the picture, put it between the brackets and then it should work

^Yep.

You could also just put the source in between these:

I just use the "[IMG]" code.

(http://www.google.com/imgres?q=military+moral+posters&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4ACAW_enUS417US419&biw=1366&bih=612&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=S8Q_iPIxzRJKbM:&imgrefurl=http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D28971&docid=fZQWgP84MgynIM&imgurl=http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_10_2008/post-203-1224856536.jpg&w=500&h=400&ei=8WIPUNueEoK69QS6s4HIDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=301&vpy=254&dur=870&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=130&ty=114&sig=113040592702983417982&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=173&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:84)

never mind