Okay, many of you probably don't know this. Now, in the Second World War, ca. 1942, Hitler's tanks came down from Austria into Hungary. This forced the Hungarian government to lick up to Hitler, or get wiped out, as is, from the face of the Earth. Understandable. Now, most of Hngary's troops later went to the German frontiers, becasue in 1943 things took a bad turn, mainly becasue the US joined. Germany at that point did something rather expectable, yet not too bright, and declared war on the US. Expectable, no? OK. Now, Russia had recovered from the German invasion (Russia was an Ally, remember?), and was a very considerable military power. She was taking over Roumania, and going fast. There was no way Germany was gonna win the war. She was good, very good, but not that good. No way could she keep up with the US and USSR. Laugh. Even the tanks in the Hungarian capital, Budapest, withdrew to the frontiers, taking much of Hungary's armed forces with them. Now then. Hungary, at this point, was very weak. She had a population of ca. 7 million, and an armed forces of approximately 100,000-150,000 men, little equipment, bad organization, fighting with Roumania simultaneously, heavily in debt, on the wrong side, and etc. She was jusst very weak. Now, she was proud too. So, she didn't humbly surrender. (Even Russia in WWI knew better.) So then, what did Hungary do? She just did the most incredibly stupid thing done probably in all of history. No joke. Can anyone at all guess what Hungary did? Porbably no, without looking. I hope I've illustrated the facts, becasue what little Hungary did was with no exaggeration the most colossaly stupid (and proud) thing to do. No one would have thought it. No-one. When people, parties involved, heard it, they laughed. Not even in their wildest dreams woould it have occurred to them that somebody would do something that utterly idiotic. They just laughed and laughed. Some wept, out of laughter. Now then, can you guys guess what little Hungary did in response to being in the terminal stage of losing the war and, perhaps, being exterminated?
Curious,
~The Beatles
I actually, new that, lol. I am in world war II in my high school right now and we are mainly studying D-Day right now.
Went Head on?
Um, do you really know? If yes, pray tell.
Somebody smart please read this topic. I've gotten really interested now.....
I like history, and WW2 is cool. We are now at the whole d-day and trying to assassinate hitler dealy-bob. But I think the best and funniest, part of all of ww2 was the invasion of italy and africa. Gen. Patton and Gen. Montgomery are hillarious.
So, d'you guys wanna know what Hungary did? I'll make a poll.
This forced the Hungarian government to lick up to Hitler, or get wiped out, as is, from the face of the Earth.
PLEASE. The Hungarians were quite happy to renew their old alliance with the Germans. They got large swathes of land for it, too.
in 1943 things took a bad turn, mainly becasue the US joined.
Don't flatter yourslves. You joined in, like, 1941.
Russia was an Ally, remember?
STALIN? A true friend of the Allies? ?:lol:
Roumania
It was called Rumania then. Its called Romania now. A combination of both?
She was good, very good, but not that good.
This is, in fact, not true. Would you care to be informed as to what tactic it was that REALLY saw the Allies win World War II?
on the wrong side
From a certain point of view.
Even Russia in WWI knew better
Actually, they didn't surrender until their country had actually collapsed & a revolution had begun.
She just did the most incredibly stupid thing done probably in all of history.
That's so far from the truth its painful.
what little Hungary did was with no exaggeration the most colossaly stupid (and proud) thing to do.
No, it wasn't. & Hungary isn't little.
Not even in their wildest dreams woould it have occurred to them that somebody would do something that utterly idiotic.
Yes, it did.
They just laughed and laughed.
Did they (Please see note from Stormclaw). Where are you getting this from?
Now then, can you guys guess what little Hungary did in response to being in the terminal stage of losing the war and, perhaps, being exterminated?
I don't have to guess. I already knew.
Hungary declared war on Germany and the Allies (again). Not because it was brave, not because it was proud. In fact, it could be said that it declared war on Germany for exactly the opposite reasons: that it was cowardly & treacherous.
& indeed, it was. The Reds were right on their doorstep. Anyone who knows much about World War II that the Russians were barbarous, murdering rats, & that with every country they ''liberated'' camne new waves of terror, rape, death & disorder. The East Europeans & the Germans hated the Stalinists, & they were terrified of them. Hungary knew it couldn't hold back the Red tide. So, like Bulgaria & Rumania/Romania, Hungary switched sides, declaring war on Germany in a desperate attemot to save itself from the senseless depravity of the Communists. They knew what fate awaited them if the Reds took over. So they threw in their lot with the Allies. EVERYONE WAS TERRIFIED OF SOVIET RETRIBUTION.
This was by no means an act of bravery. They had nothing against Germany. They thought Hitler was great, because he was holding back Stalin, if nothing else. So did the Austrians, to a far greater extent. Every country in the Axis was quite happy with it. Only when the tide had turned against them did they bottle out.
You need to get your facts straightened out, my friend.
((Note from Stormclaw: Raine, you've been warned before about this. Watch it.))
Vengerak, in starting, I would like to remark that I am Hungarian, and thus have more right to assume ethos than you do. Most of your statements were quite wrong. I will just proceed, and pick them apart.
QuoteThis forced the Hungarian government to lick up to Hitler, or get wiped out, as is, from the face of the Earth.
PLEASE. The Hungarians were quite happy to renew their old alliance with the Germans. They got large swathes of land for it, too.
Hungarians did not get land from the Germans, they merely reconquered some territory through the honvedseg, and that was later taken. This fact is taught differently in history books in the West, I knwo that. But the truth is, that Hitler's tanks came to the capitol, and that was far from a "friendly" gesture. Please believe I know far more about this than you do. I am, after all, Hungarian, and I also have first-person accounts. My grandfather knew the minister of foreign policy of Hungary during most of WWII.
Quotein 1943 things took a bad turn, mainly becasue the US joined.
Don't flatter yourslves.
I am not even a US citizen. That is a fact.
QuoteRussia was an Ally, remember?
STALIN? A true friend of the Allies? :lol:
I didn't say true friend. I said Russia was an ally, and as such, at war with Hungary.
QuoteRoumania
It was called Rumania then. Its called Romania now. Never both.
Many English texts refer to it as "Roumania". Google it, if you like. Hungarians call it "Roma'nia". ' denotes an accent.
QuoteShe was good, very good, but not that good.
This is, in fact, not true. Would you care to be informed as to what tactic it was that REALLY saw the Allies win World War II?
Are you trying to deny the fact that, up until 1942, the German industry, discipline, and tactics carried the day in almost all conflicts? After 1943-1944, they were outnumbered and outgunned.
Quoteon the wrong side
From a certain point of view.
What are you referring to?
QuoteEven Russia in WWI knew better
Actually, they didn't surrender until their country had actually collapsed & a revolution had begun.
Did I deny that? But Hungary was also in turmoil, yet they did and incredibly stupid thing.
QuoteShe just did the most incredibly stupid thing done probably in all of history.
That's so far from the truth its painful.
Read on, whilst I laugh at your above statement. You will soon see what I mean.
Quotewhat little Hungary did was with no exaggeration the most colossaly stupid (and proud) thing to do.
No, it wasn't. & Hungary isn't little.
Oh, Hungary isn't little, is it? LOL
(Maybe not for a Scot, but the population is barely over 10 million, and land is 96K km^2)
QuoteNot even in their wildest dreams woould it have occurred to them that somebody would do something that utterly idiotic.
Yes, it did.
You don't know what you're talking about. Read on.
QuoteThey just laughed and laughed.
Did they Hell. Where are you getting this from?
Hmmm, this new board lets you swear? Anyways, read on.
QuoteNow then, can you guys guess what little Hungary did in response to being in the terminal stage of losing the war and, perhaps, being exterminated?
I don't have to guess. I already knew.
Hungary declared war on Germany. Not because it was brave, not because it was proud. In fact, it could be said that it declared war on Germany for exactly the opposite reasons: that it was cowardly & treacherous.
Were it not for the fact that you don't know much about this, I'd say you were crazy. Attack Germany, Hell.
Quote& indeed, it was. The Reds were right on their doorstep. Anyone who knows much about World War II that the Russians were barbarous, murdering rats, & that with every country they ''liberated'' camne new waves of terror, rape, death & disorder. The East Europeans & the Germans hated the Stalinists, & they were terrified of them. Hungary knew it couldn't hold back the Red tide.
Correct, until here. The Soviets were bigger rats than the Germans, in some respects.
QuoteSo, like Bulgaria & Rumania/Romania, Hungary switched sides, declaring war on Germany in a desperate attempt to save itself from the senseless depravity of the Communists. They knew what fate awaited them if the Reds took over. So they threw in their lot with the Allies. EVERYONE WAS TERRIFIED OF SOVIET RETRIBUTION.
I don't remember about Bulgaria and R*mania, but that is absolutely not what Hungary did. At least, not then.
Oh yes, what do you mean by Soviet "retribution"? "Invasion" is the word you're looking for.
QuoteThis was by no means an act of bravery. They had nothing against Germany. They thought Hitler was great, because he was holding back Stalin, if nothing else. So did the Austrians, to a far greater extent. Every country in the Axis was quite happy with it. Only when the tide had turned against them did they bottle out.
You're referring to something which never happened - they did not declare war on Germany. They did declare war on somebody, but not Germany.
QuoteYou need to get your facts straightened out, my friend.
And the same to you, Raine.
Now I will reveal what Hungary actually did. What she did was simple, and incredibly, utterly foolish.
She declared war on the USA and the USSR.
Yes, you read that right. Pretty darn amazing and crazy, right? Politicians were guffawing in Geneva.
Now, in the case of the US, this was, in hindsight, wise. The US just laughed, but had war status with Hungary, so they had to send aid afterwards.
Declaring war on the USSR was just an artistic touch, may be.
It blows the mind away, does it not?
~The Beatles
I would like to remark that I am Hungarian, and thus have more right to assume ethos than you do.
Why, exactly?
Hungary declared war on Germany on the 21st of January, 1945. No escaping that. & I think that ''Genocide'' would be still more accurate than ''Invasion''.
They retook SOME land. They were GIVEN most land (Primarily in the Vojvadina area.).
Anything that ever referes to Ru/Romania as ''Roumania'' is wrong.
In your not being a US citizen, sure, fair enough. I concede that.
Hungary isn't small. It has a fairly small population, but the country itself is not small. You're probably too used to dealing with countries in the American Continents. As Eurpean nations go, it is a fair size.
The US wouldn't have got a sniff if Hitler had a.) Continued to hit British airfields, rather than beggining the blitz. b.) Hadn't sanctioned that ridiculous push into the Caucasus & instead taken Moscow. c.) Had refrained from interfering with Field Marshal Rommel's battle strategies & not poured so many troops into Tunisia (Even after the Torch landings, Rommel had the Americans & Montogmery licked. He was smashing them up all over Algeria, & it was only High Command idiotically commanding him back that ruined their chances.). Additionally, it would have been a good idea for Mussolini to actually do something right, & take Malta in 1940 when he had the chance. These are actually little things. Nothing major at all. There are a lot of other things which would require more effort, but would not have been difficult by any stretch of the imagination. Also, when they first decalred war on America things went great for them, because the American's incompetent fleet was getting torpedoed to death all along the Eastern Seaboard in the perversly named ''Happy Time'' of the U-Boats. This actually IMPROVED the German situation, because they could finally stop Roosvelt's convoys, which had been neutral before.
The Soviets were most certainly bigger rats than the Germans. Operation Barbarossa saved all of Europe from them. Search around for details of Operation Icebreaker. ''Stalin'' (In fact the sickly, physically misshapen son of a poor shoemaker & a choirboy, as opposed to a ''Man of Steel''.) was a brutal, savage mongrel.
Honestly, I don't care if you're Hungarian or not. I'm Scottish, but there are a lot of people who aren't Scottish who know more about our history than I. By the same token, there are a lot of people who weren't alive during or fought in World War II who know more about it than those who were/did.
Hungary was effectivley at war with them anyway. If had been fighting the USSR for years, & the US indierctly. & it still backstabbed Germany. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. Any responsible President/Prime Minister/Chancellor/Thingy would have done the same, rather than see its people butchered to death by the Communists.
Sorry I couldn't respond in more detail. In closing, though, HELL IS NOT A ''SWEAR WORD'', IT IS A PLACE. & replacing it with ''Heck'' is just childish.
Actually, it may have been December 30, I'm not entirley certain.
In any case, though, the fact remains that they declared war on Germany.
The Golden Age of RWL.
This was actually interesting.
Silly Raine... always raising hell.
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He was wrong, too... though I would disagree with Beatles about Hungary's decision to declare war on the US/USSR as being foolish. Who, after all, was winning... and who, after all, was going to have the post war goodies...
Who, after all, had been near conflict from the outset of the Russian Revolution about the government which eventually won out leading Russia...
Point: Hungary soot do gain from getting the obvious beatdown it was undoubtably going to take, hence the politicians' decision... from my point of view.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Somebody has been reading too much Rudolf Hess.
Though Beatles is not entirely accurate either. The US and Germany had been at war for 2 years already in 1943. They declared war on each other in the days immediately following Pearl Harbor. Funnily enough, due to a mail screwup, Japan's declaration of war didn't get sent to D.C. until well after Pearl Harbor, after in fact, the one from Germany got there. And the "entry" of the US into the war is debatable. Was it '42/'43 when they started the bombing raids? Or maybe the Normandy invasion in '44? In '43 the outcome in Russia was still in the balance in fact. The Russians had the edge after being thoroughly whipped by the Germans in '42, but their edge was not exceptionally big. Again, it wasn't untill "44 and the Battle of Kursk that the tide of war had truly been changed. Course without American help the Russians would never have been able to turn it at all... we were the major supplier of the weapons used to win the war. In Russia we didn't supply the frontline weapons for very long, the Russians took our stuff and made it better or invented their own stuff, but American trucks and Jeeps hauled all their equipment. Britain on the other hand had a very large propartion of its fighting vehicles entirely supplied by the US. But I digress. I'm sure someone will pic me apart for not mentioning this or that, such as Stalingrad or the siege of Moscow, or some other thing, but I don't have the time to really get into it. If you want a long discussion on WW2, message me on AIM.
RanQdom fun facts:
During the war France cemented its turrets facing the German border... Germany went around and conquered, the French were practically helpless...
Hitler was reported to have enjoyed having his companions participate in his own... German Shiza... yes, he liked the poo.
There was only one male that Hitler refereed to as his sweet, was one of his friends, (can't remember name ><)
the Shwashtika (sp?) is the reverse Hopi sign of peace, and he first saw it at the Church he attended when he was young, he was a choir boy.
Hitler fought during WWI, but was hospitalized at the Surrender.
Hitler loved his dog more than anything, however when he decided to commit suicide toward the end of his tyrannical conquest, he made sure the drugs were lethal by having them tested on his dog. He also had all the dogs puppies, executed.
More Russians and Polish died during the Holocaust than Jews.
Russians won many battles because the cold was too much for the German soldiers to take.
Hitler was not the one who instituted the idea of creating a master race, it was his fanatical general, who took ideas and ran with them.
Most tyrannical conquests are headed by a man short in stature, coincidence? I think not... do not trust the short ones.
pah half of those facts are fallacious but i just woke up so you get a pass till volkov comes along and tries to correct you but I will have to correct him before I go to bed tonight...
The vicious circle begins.
LOL. Shut it Neo. And yes. I shall now go through point by point.
Quote from: Beem on March 28, 2006, 04:09:40 AM
RanQdom fun facts:
During the war France cemented its turrets facing the German border... Germany went around and conquered, the French were practically helpless...
No. They went around true, but the French held out in the Maginot Line for quite some time. A drawback of Blitzkrieg.
Quote
Hitler was reported to have enjoyed having his companions participate in his own... German Shiza... yes, he liked the poo.
There was only one male that Hitler refereed to as his sweet, was one of his friends, (can't remember name ><)
Umm.... No comment.
Quote
the Shwashtika (sp?) is the reverse Hopi sign of peace, and he first saw it at the Church he attended when he was young, he was a choir boy.
No, it is an ancient symbol used by the Knights Templar and a Teutonic pagan symbol before that. Swastika.
Quote
Hitler fought during WWI, but was hospitalized at the Surrender.
He was hospitalized near the end but released before the war actually ended.
Quote
Hitler loved his dog more than anything, however when he decided to commit suicide toward the end of his tyrannical conquest, he made sure the drugs were lethal by having them tested on his dog. He also had all the dogs puppies, executed.
This I'm not sure on. It doesn't really matter though.
Quote
More Russians and Polish died during the Holocaust than Jews.
It depends on how you define what the Holocaust was, if you are refering the huge number of people Hitler killed in battle and afterwards, then yes, if just the death camps then no. Whichever way you look at it, far more Slavs died than Jews. Just not neccesarily in the Holocaust.
Quote
Russians won many battles because the cold was too much for the German soldiers to take.
Um.. no. The cold killed alot of Germans because they were poorly equipped and it affected some of their equipment, but the Russians won battles because they outnumbered the Germans about 10 to 1. They brought 3 or 4 times the number of tanks germany did to the battle of kursk.
Quote
Hitler was not the one who instituted the idea of creating a master race, it was his fanatical general, who took ideas and ran with them.
Wrong. What the fanatical general did was run the death camps. But the entire thing was indeed Hitler's idea.
Quote
Most tyrannical conquests are headed by a man short in stature, coincidence? I think not... do not trust the short ones.
Hitler was average height for his time.
Yiss... Maginot lasted for a while till it was actually surrounded.
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"Swastika" also used in Korea as a symbol of peace or some such... if you go to S. Korea today, theres swastikas everywhere.
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Gas to the eyes, released before wars end but unable to participate in active military service... was awarded the Iron Cross first class.
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German equiptment was better in the form of fighting they were trained to do... summer/spring fighting with a non-static line. Germans were winning both Kursk, and the Battle of the Bulge till they plain and simple ran out of fuel on the field... and the brits told us silly americans that our bombers werent accomplishing anything. ;-)
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Hrm. Hitlers idea, yes, but he left the organization and all that up to Himmler... "out of his hands" as it were, but not out of his control.
Quote
German equiptment was better in the form of fighting they were trained to do... summer/spring fighting with a non-static line. Germans were winning both Kursk, and the Battle of the Bulge till they plain and simple ran out of fuel on the field... and the brits told us silly americans that our bombers werent accomplishing anything.
Winning Kursk is debatable, the Battle of the Bulge was lost when it became a bulge instead of a puncture in the lines. After that it was just a matter of time. They were running low in both but they never actually ran out I believe. Ironic though, the main point of the BOTB was to capture fuel. Then use the fuel to reconquer most of what was lost, but the first objective was to capture an allied fuel dump. But yes, the bombing was the reason they had so little fuel. Kursk.. was more just sheer numbers, and the fact that the Russians forced them to fight there instead of where the Germans wanted to fight. The Russians killed nearly all the German tanks, after that it was pretty much over. At a 1:1 exchange rate true, but they alot had more of them. Another problem at Kursk was the scarcity of their really good tanks, Tigers and Panthers... bugger I'm lecturing again. LOL. Neo knows all this.
QuoteHrm. Hitlers idea, yes, but he left the organization and all that up to Himmler... "out of his hands" as it were, but not out of his control.
So pretty much what I said, but with the name of the guy who ran them.
Ignoring the first bit...
Kingtigers had an 8-1 exchange ratio even as the training was getting poo and the enemy was getting better.
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ON the second bit...
You didnt say specifically who set up the camps, you just said that it was hitlers idea and that someone else ran them, which could imply that hitler actually had a hand in their creation and the processes imvolved in running/maintaining them... which is false.
Hitler spawned the idea, Himmler asks for permission, Himmler does all the work. Hitler never once toured a death camp; Himmler did more than you could imagine.
(I may be wrong on the hitler never visiting a death camp... dont know though.)
At Kursk I meant. The ratio was 1:1 actually 1:1.4 in favor of the Germans.
lol, seems like you guys are about to start WWIII :-D
This is a very old topic. Please do try not to ressurect it.
It's already been ressurected twice.
Yes, but the first resurrection actually had something to say.
who's to say someone won't say something worthwhile?
Well, "lol, seems like you guys are about to start WWIII grin" is not it.
Hey Volkov, You spelt resurrect wrong.
Hey vinnie, no I didn't.
Quote from: Aqualis on March 26, 2006, 09:11:30 PM
The Golden Age of RWL.
This was actually interesting.
Heh, yeah. I reckon I was somewhat incorrect, and probably a tad overly...vitriolic? Still, t'was years ago. Views change. Not really an accurate picture of the "golden" age, though--Beatles and I actually got on really well.
QuoteNo. They went around true, but the French held out in the Maginot Line for quite some time. A drawback of Blitzkrieg.
It was more a case of "being left to rot" than "holding out". The sections of it the Germans invested were taken by storm. Although it is true that the Maginot Line did in fact face both ways.
QuoteNo, it is an ancient symbol used by the Knights Templar and a Teutonic pagan symbol before that. Swastika.
The symbol was also used by Buddhists.
QuoteWrong. What the fanatical general did was run the death camps. But the entire thing was indeed Hitler's idea.
Actually, Hitler and Rosenberg's idea was to deport them all to Madagascar, and later eastern Europe. It is thought that when the exterminations are thought to have begun on a large scale in '45 it was largely on the initiative of his subordinates.
Quote from: Gen. Volkov on March 28, 2006, 12:26:01 PM
Quotethe Battle of the Bulge was lost when it became a bulge instead of a puncture in the lines.
The bulge in the frontline was created because the lines were punctured. Obviously.
QuoteAfter that it was just a matter of time. They were running low in both but they never actually ran out I believe.
You believe wrong. Pieper's group, for one, had to abandon its vehicles in the field because they were out of fuel.
QuoteIronic though, the main point of the BOTB was to capture fuel.
No, the point of Autumn Mist was to capture Antwerp and cut off more than a million Allied soldiers. Capturing fuel along the way was simply a means to that end.
QuoteBut yes, the bombing was the reason they had so little fuel.
Not really. The bombing wasn't decisive, the fuel was running out simply because supplies were finite and the Germans were running out of the stuff after so many years.
QuoteKursk.. was more just sheer numbers, and the fact that the Russians forced them to fight there instead of where the Germans wanted to fight. The Russians killed nearly all the German tanks, after that it was pretty much over.
The whole "the tigers are burning" thing was actually revealed to be myth quite some time ago. The Germans gave the Russians a sound thrashing in the field. The offensive was called off at the point where victory was in sight because Hitler had been nervous of it beginning, and with it having bogged down on the north flank and the Western Allies landing in Sicily he lost his nerve. Manstein was furious.
QuoteAnother problem at Kursk was the scarcity of their really good tanks, Tigers and Panthers...
The Panthers actually experienced a lot of problems in the field; they weren't all that, and weren't present at the decisive battles of the Citadel campaign anyway. The jagdpanther though, to be fair, was probably the best tank destroyer of the war. Came far too late in the game, though.
QuoteThe bulge in the frontline was created because the lines were punctured. Obviously.
No, there's a difference between puncturing lines and pushing them back. If they had been punctured, the Germans would have been able to get into the rear areas and sow havoc, in addition to getting too the massive allied fuel depots.
QuoteYou believe wrong. Pieper's group, for one, had to abandon its vehicles in the field because they were out of fuel.
One example is not conclusive proof than an entire german army ran out of fuel. Most of them had enough left to retreat. Though alot of that had to do with them having alot less vehicles retreating than initially pushed out to attack.
QuoteNo, the point of Autumn Mist was to capture Antwerp and cut off more than a million Allied soldiers. Capturing fuel along the way was simply a means to that end.
Quit taking my statements out of context. The rest of that says "capturing the fuel was one of the FIRST objectives"
Quote
Not really. The bombing wasn't decisive, the fuel was running out simply because supplies were finite and the Germans were running out of the stuff after so many years.
You are correct that the early bombing wasn't all that effective or decisive, except to pull much needed resources away from the Eastern front to defend the homeland, by the time of the Battle of the Bulge, the bombing had become very effective, and one of it's targets was oil refineries. It was a combination of the two forces that was causing the shortage.
QuoteThe whole "the tigers are burning" thing was actually revealed to be myth quite some time ago. The Germans gave the Russians a sound thrashing in the field. The offensive was called off at the point where victory was in sight because Hitler had been nervous of it beginning, and with it having bogged down on the north flank and the Western Allies landing in Sicily he lost his nerve. Manstein was furious.
While it's true that the Russians actually lost more tanks than the Germans, the Russians outnumbered the Germans so heavily that it didn't matter. I was only refering to the Battle of Kursk though, not the whole Citadel campaign, though Hitler's retreat order did help set up Kursk.
QuoteThe Panthers actually experienced a lot of problems in the field; they weren't all that, and weren't present at the decisive battles of the Citadel campaign anyway. The jagdpanther though, to be fair, was probably the best tank destroyer of the war. Came far too late in the game, though.
Panthers were present at most of the battles of the Citadel campaign, but not in decisive numbers. And I refered to 2 tanks, the Tiger and the Panther. The Tiger was most certainly all that. There are reports of one ore two Tigers destroying most of a division of Shermans. And while the T-34 was a much better tank than the Sherman, it was definitely not as good as the Tiger, and probably the Panther as well. But again, as with the Jagdpanther, neither tank came soon enough, or in enough numbers to make a big enough difference for it to matter in the overall picture. They gave a good showing though. Don't even get me started on the Tiger 2.
QuoteActually, Hitler and Rosenberg's idea was to deport them all to Madagascar, and later eastern Europe. It is thought that when the exterminations are thought to have begun on a large scale in '45 it was largely on the initiative of his subordinates.
The info I have says that Hitler implemented the exterminations after he realized it would not be possible to get them out of Europe.
Oh, and why are you posting in this after it's been dead for so long? And when I wasn't actually even talking to you?