Redwall: Warlords

Discussion => Reg Discussion => Topic started by: Holby on January 17, 2010, 09:06:23 PM

Title: Fair Maiden
Post by: Holby on January 17, 2010, 09:06:23 PM
Please make way for the greatest clan ever seen:

(http://redwallwarlords.com/temp/Fair-Maiden-v2.png)


Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 07:02:16 AM
nice joke

i guess i'm the villain of the story
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Marell on January 18, 2010, 07:31:04 AM
What joke?

And no not necessarily. Why... do you plan on being the villain? Haha
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 09:55:24 AM
Well, so far, i had all my leaders killed by the team, When i retaliate against Fair Lamedom you guys can announce me as the bad guy.


oh, the joke is what Hobly said
Please make way for the greatest clan ever seen

Since he said please
greatest clan ever wouldn't ask people to Please make way unless they lack the ability proving they're the greatest clan ever or expect it given to them.

I can't take this representation seriously. This tells me FM want everyone to leave them alone while they dominate and take over with a large group of midskilled players under 1 banner.

All good for the 9 of ya's in theory. We'll see how everyone else feels. Sometimes evil needs to be fought by another type of evil.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Wolf Snare on January 18, 2010, 10:25:08 AM
It was more of a friendly suggestion so we don't tread on any toes... By all means, though, do what ya can.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 12:18:51 PM
I plan on deleting and not playing redwall anymore.
Today i held little defense and little land. I did however have a great ratio.

I log on to see my empire on 300k leaders. This is 3k worth of huts.
i notice all my food cash troops and loyalty is gone.

From what i hear, Leader suicides were permitted in the circumstance that a player has far superior defense for others to acquire land.

Unlimited skills would not protect me. This is code abuse and the last time i build an empire to have it destroyed cost free.
I don't care about this game enough to play it pointlessly.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Wolf Snare on January 18, 2010, 12:20:40 PM
Don't just delete.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 01:01:41 PM
Turns: 16     Cash: $247,345,368,461     Land: 17,835     Loyalty: 12,089,612     Food: 176,280,697     Health: 100%     Networth: $115,772,729
Your account has been marked for deletion. Thanks for playing!

goodbye redwall
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 18, 2010, 04:38:31 PM
Bye

Leader suicides are permitted for ... you kow what, I've explained it before, I am not going to do it again.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Holby on January 18, 2010, 05:05:25 PM
Quote from: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 12:18:51 PM

Unlimited skills would not protect me. This is code abuse and the last time i build an empire to have it destroyed cost free.
I don't care about this game enough to play it pointlessly.
Yes, the ability to massacre an opponent with suicides is absolute rubbish. Unfortunately, I am subject to the exact same tactic. This is a level playing field.

Giving up before the battle is even begun? It doesn't sound like the Sevz I know.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gorak on January 18, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
deleting is for quitters

Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Ryu on January 18, 2010, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 01:01:41 PM
Turns: 16     Cash: $247,345,368,461     Land: 17,835     Loyalty: 12,089,612     Food: 176,280,697     Health: 100%     Networth: $115,772,729
Your account has been marked for deletion. Thanks for playing!

goodbye redwall
Well Sevz,  I never knew being out numbered was the way to beat you.

Its not like you at all. If you do plan to play, you got an ally down for whatever right here. Seriously, I am not much, but I will never give up...



Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 11:48:34 PM
I have no reason to continue.

Hobly said it best
the ability to massacre an opponent with suicides is absolute rubbish

Since it's allowed for any reason these days, i do not enjoy making a valuable empire for a weak random Non-leaderer to kill my defense and have another player poison my stuff without a good ratio or skills to better my leaders.

My plan was to help half the players in your list. No point doing that.
Enjoy a game that involves teams and not skills.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Marell on January 19, 2010, 04:11:06 AM
Why not make your own team and use suicides to beat us. Holby put it best when he said "I am subject to the exact same tactic. This is a level playing field"

You can't keep blaming suicides for your defeats as if they are some new aspect recently coded in. With both defence and diplomacy they should never be a problem.
If you're great at creating resources but can't protect them (and I'm talking about more than just leader defence), then perhaps you're only half the player you think yourself to be.

Would like to see you stick around and see you try and tackle the game as an underdog, but perhaps that style of play is not for you. See ya round mate.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Peace Alliance on January 19, 2010, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Sevz on January 18, 2010, 11:48:34 PM
another player poison my stuff without a good ratio or skills to better my leaders.

Actually, I stole from you and I can tell you that beyond a doubt i had the best ratio this game has seen in a long time.

Like I said over IM, sevs, being angry about the betrayal is entirely legitimate. We expected as much. But all this talk about game imbalance and unfairness is just projection.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 11:05:38 AM
It's never that you got beaten, is it Sevs. If you go down, it's because the game is out of balance.

I expected you to be the most difficult opposition the game would throw at us. Try playing the undersog for a change, it's fun.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: Marell on January 19, 2010, 04:11:06 AM
Why not make your own team and use suicides to beat us. Holby put it best when he said "I am subject to the exact same tactic. This is a level playing field"

That sounds like a waste of my time. I don't like to deliberately fail attacks. I will not reduce myself to relying on it.

PA
being angry about the betrayal is entirely legitimate.

I didn't expect any of you to stick to your words.

Quote from: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 11:05:38 AM
It's never that you got beaten, is it Sevs. If you go down, it's because the game is out of balance.

I expected you to be the most difficult opposition the game would throw at us. Try playing the undersog for a change, it's fun.


I had 7m leaders on 175 ratio +30%wolf mod, all killed by 100k leaders on -40%rat mod
You decide if it's cool or fun

Underdog is my specialty, pointlessness isn't. I'll enjoy playing elsewhere and not at redwall.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sharptooh on January 19, 2010, 02:28:51 PM
Giving up because of some leader suicides and some people destroying your net?

I'm pretty sure most people at redwall have been through that, more than half the people here have also probably been killed at least once.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 19, 2010, 03:08:16 PM
QuoteGiving up because of some leader suicides and some people destroying your net?

I've lost count of the number of times that has happened to me. Suicides suck. But they are part of the game, and you have to learn to work around them. The first time someone used suicides on me, I was mad as hell. But I wasn't gonna quit over it.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 03:35:30 PM
I've been suicided way too many times. Failing attacks is something i'm strongly against and it's encouraged over here.
You guys can hunt mice with nuclear warheads for all i care.

I prefer to play solo and against the numbers. Slow server where i get my leaders killed doesn't work for me.

Seems pointless to play and not get anywhere. When i do get ahead, there's absolutely nothing/zilch/0/naught i can do to protect my empire.
Yes i appear a sore loser. I'd prefer that than waste my time here.

Good luck to you all

Farewell, Sevz
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 19, 2010, 03:51:16 PM
Quote
Seems pointless to play and not get anywhere. When i do get ahead, there's absolutely nothing/zilch/0/naught i can do to protect my empire.

There are certain things you can do. Declanning helps a lot. Having lots of leaders in conjunction with that helps as well. If you create a big enough NW difference, people won't be able to attack you anymore. We here at RWL have dealt with the suicide issue for awhile, and have developed tactics to protect ourselves. It's part of the skill set we've all developed.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 03:55:26 PM
Lol Sevs the fact that you are still posting here means that you want to be convinced to stay, which means that this thread is just about excuses rather than quitting. If you are really leaving, then do it and stop making excuses. If you aren't, then just admit that you are staying and stop complaining about game balance.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: Gen. Volkov on January 19, 2010, 03:51:16 PM
Quote
Seems pointless to play and not get anywhere. When i do get ahead, there's absolutely nothing/zilch/0/naught i can do to protect my empire.

There are certain things you can do. Declanning helps a lot. Having lots of leaders in conjunction with that helps as well. If you create a big enough NW difference, people won't be able to attack you anymore. We here at RWL have dealt with the suicide issue for awhile, and have developed tactics to protect ourselves. It's part of the skill set we've all developed.

Lots of leaders makes no difference, You lose a percentage, not a quantity. Declanning is the best way around it but it's still Not possible to defend 2 good players using leader suicides. Bigger Networth gains targets and creates more potential damage.


Quote from: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 03:55:26 PM
Lol Sevs the fact that you are still posting here means that you want to be convinced to stay, which means that this thread is just about excuses rather than quitting. If you are really leaving, then do it and stop making excuses. If you aren't, then just admit that you are staying and stop complaining about game balance.

Zip it Lord Shadow.



you attack Unsuccessfully, You lose 154 leaders and manage to destroy 453,187 of your enemies leaders. No complaints here. I'll play elsewhere.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 19, 2010, 04:25:14 PM
QuoteLots of leaders makes no difference, You lose a percentage, not a quantity. Declanning is the best way around it but it's still Not possible to defend 2 good players using leader suicides. Bigger Networth gains targets and creates more potential damage.

Quantity can still make up for a middling ratio, and even if you have 2 people suiciding you, they still have to deal with attack limits. If you have good timing, you can survive the suicides. I've done it. During the first Woof-BlackFly war, I kept a big net for 3 consecutive runs, just by timing my runs correctly. The timing did break down, and Snare was able to take me down, but it was a very close run thing. We kept Ereptor up on top for a long time in the face of constant suicides. It's possible to defend against, you just need a partner or two and good timing.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 04:40:57 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I've worked it out. Simply put

empire 1 has 10m leaders, empire 2 has 10m leaders, empire 3 has 200k.
empire 3 suicides empire 1 until empire 2 can open attack opportunities. This will give them unlimited attacks against empire 1
open once and you can surely do it again after some more suicides.
whoever was opening attack ops can attack successfully for land with leaders.

200k leaders at -40% beats down 6m leaders at +30% at no cost.
From 2 equal setups, there's no barriers of effectiveness with leader suicides.
Rat has minus 40% but it's able to kill a million times what they strike with, what a joke
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 04:57:12 PM
There is a defense ratio at which it is mathematically impossible to open attack ops on you while the attacker is at 175 ratio, even if the attacker has a trillion land, and you have 10k. It is possible to defend completely against suicides with careful play. That said, there is usually a way to open atk ops on someone if the attacker is willing do go over 175 ratio and take losses, but that leaves the attacker open to retal.

Point is, suicides are not the end of the world. They can be successfully fended off, and have been many times. When Ereptor was up there, we surived several runs where he was maxxed with suicides every hour for three full days.

It can be done, if you are smart about it.

I don't dispute that suicides are a little unbalanced, but if we take them out, the game will be far more unbalanced in favor of leader massing strategies. There are a few workarounds in discssion, but for now, know that we have lived with it for ages now, and found ways to deal with it. You should do the same.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 05:32:05 PM
Your very incorrect. There's not a possible method to defend a substantial amount of suicides. I can do it as good as possible and it's still never enough. (if i was after my own blood)

There are a few precautionary methods to take. Firstly, gather maximum land available to force people to take land and better your ratio at hitlimit. You can save turns while your in a good leader production bracket to regenerate the expected losses (most are clueless to). You can drop land and make less profit o.O, You could use a wolf or be really nice to everyone.

End of the day, if someone has something of value, at redwall it isn't possible to secure without half the server on your team.

Well done to you all when Ereptor withstood the leader suicides. I'm not Ereptor, i don't have 10people helping me access land or give me free troops and resources.
When i play i like to run turns alone. I like to grow as much as the land available will allow. I like to play a style that another solo player can't match. A few suicides later and i'm below average. If i don't enjoy the game why should i play?
If i do return, it will be strictly because i have a team to destroy you all
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 05:46:18 PM
Lol. The math doesn't lie. There is an easy attainable ratio where you are immune to open atk op. If you can get your ratio 21 suicides worth above that mark, you are safe, for a day at least.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 06:02:41 PM
You seem to forget about the simple things. What happens if you have the land and get suicided? your ratio isn't very good and your at hitlimit. This means someone with a good ratio and no land can easily open attack ops for more suicides.
21 becomes the minimum on the first hour of 0 turns, the next day thats 45 without open attack ops. if you lose only 1 or 2% leaders per hit say goodbye to the chances of defending anyone.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 06:14:23 PM
Well certainly. If you are in a situation where you expect to be attacked, dropping land becomes a good idea. You produce less, but you keep more. But a lot depends on the timing of your run, too.

Anyway, I am not going to give you any more pointers than that for leader defense - it's all there to be found, and it can and has been done. So your claims that it is impossible are baseless, and have been priven wrong before. If you are still going to quit over it, just do it and be done.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 06:41:38 PM
Shadow
Your base argument is that leader suicides can be defended against because it's been done before.
Dude, I've done it many times. I've been way more successful at it than you. And none of these rubbish pointers of yours are helping.

If you drop land, then get maxed out with leader suicides your in a world of pain. You hold lesser land lesser leaders and a weak ratio, easy for all to espy.
It's definitely not possible to defend against skilled opponents who have the numbers to utilize.

Also, i've already quit. I'm only posting on the forums now cos you told me not to. Where the [rudeness] do you get off bossing me around?


Your a champ Hobly
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Holby on January 19, 2010, 06:55:51 PM
Please play nice. Oh wait, you aren't playing at all. My bad.

Holby, modding.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gorak on January 19, 2010, 07:35:05 PM
someones pride is wounded ::)

all this attention on leader suicides. and yet I'll still  monostack and sack the poo outta ya
take your resources, then STD your troops away. Far more effective in my mind.
But by all means cry about ratio and suicides instead of learning to cope and persevere.

It's adaptablity to any circumstance that marks a good player, not running your mouth in forum, blowing smoke up your own butt
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 08:08:29 PM
rotflmao

i've got no reason to play, i was planning on making a few of my mates emperors. They don't want or need my help so i quit. I'm well aware of what it takes to be a great player. With all the tricks available it's still gonna take a few people with a better plan to beat Fair Madam

My pride isn't wounded at all. I was in a clan, i got leader suicided about 100 times and then poisoned.
I had little of anything when this happened and i planned quitting immediately because it was Volkov who did it.
PA wanted me to log in so i could see how much net Ryu had, smelt fishy so i logged on to remove food and send it to Pippin with the 20 turns i built up. Instead the food was sold and i was getting robbed too fast.
Great move by PA but it was after my decision so it didn't bother me.

Good point about your adaptability, i'll play elsewhere and paste the results to ya
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Shadow on January 19, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
Sevs, getting around word filters will get you gagged. This is the only warning you are going to get, as you have been told this many times before

Shadow
Modding

Anyway, if you really don't care, why are you still talking about it?
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 09:18:36 PM
Big man Shadow, gagging is your specialty.

If i don't reply, 1 person says something about me and 10people speculate from that assumption. I'd rather say my part than read through countless n00b rants about how your all better than me.
When you didn't play, you did use the forums so you have no right to tell me not to. I'm not issuing challenges or naming people i can beat. I'm getting my point across so people like you don't put words in my mouth.

I want people to be aware that it takes no skills to fail leader suicides. It's a statement of your own abilities and an insult to redwalls name.

Give me no reason to reply and i'll shut up.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Peace Alliance on January 19, 2010, 10:26:07 PM
Alrighty.

Point made.

So, who likes the Fair Maiden flag?
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Briar on January 19, 2010, 10:28:39 PM
I do.

Simple yet sexy.  Hopefully they can live up to it.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 19, 2010, 11:04:16 PM
Quoteempire 1 has 10m leaders, empire 2 has 10m leaders, empire 3 has 200k.
empire 3 suicides empire 1 until empire 2 can open attack opportunities.

If you are unclanned, they can only do so many suicides. All you have to do is have enough leaders and a good enough ratio that you can survive the suicides until the next time you run. Then you rebuild your defenses. If I remember correctly, you laughed at me for using suicides in the early stages of our fight awhile back.

Quote
I had little of anything when this happened and i planned quitting immediately because it was Volkov who did it

For what it's worth, I did feel bad about doing it. However, I also wanted to give Fair Maiden it's best chance to succeed, and you or a team led by you would have been it's greatest threat.

QuoteI want people to be aware that it takes no skills to fail leader suicides.

This is true, it doesn't take any skill at all for an indy to leader suicide someone until a leader player can either open atk ops or murder. However, it does take skill to defend oneself against that tactic.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 20, 2010, 02:19:48 AM
It's fine Volkov, we both know you're extremely skilled and you were probably asked to do it.

You would also remember me defending your leader suicides very successfully. The circumstances are completely different when a team is using it (overkill). It's definitely not possible to defend unless you can be certain that no other players have generated many leaders.

Usually everyone using leaders makes as many as they can. The reason why the leadering strategy is special is it's safety, a player can save up resources and use skills to keep it safe by accessing large land.

players like me will continue to quit knowing it doesn't matter if they've banked 1 run or 100 runs. It all dies at the same rate.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 20, 2010, 09:10:19 AM
QuoteIt's fine Volkov, we both know you're extremely skilled and you were probably asked to do it.

Alright then. Oh, and yes, I was asked to do so. I knew I would be, as I am an indy at present.

Quote
You would also remember me defending your leader suicides very successfully. The circumstances are completely different when a team is using it (overkill). It's definitely not possible to defend unless you can be certain that no other players have generated many leaders.

Yes, I do remember that, and while I agree circumstances change when facing a team, there is still the 21 attack limit. That's why you could defend yourself against my suicides back then, and being clanned is why I was able to hurt you so badly with them two days ago. Even with the massive ratios we had in Fair Maiden at the time, I'm not sure if we could have taken you out with just 21 suicides.

Quote
Usually everyone using leaders makes as many as they can. The reason why the leadering strategy is special is it's safety, a player can save up resources and use skills to keep it safe by accessing large land.

For the same reason, it can unbalance the game. If a leader player saves up enough resources and keeps it safe, he can acquire a large enough army that no indy or other leader player can break him. Which can be fun for the person doing it, but it's no fun for the rest of the game. RWL balances the game through suicides. Taking the top spot and holding it should be difficult. One guy with enough cash and leaders shouldn't be able to just take over the game on a whim.

Quote
players like me will continue to quit knowing it doesn't matter if they've banked 1 run or 100 runs. It all dies at the same rate.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sevz on January 20, 2010, 11:07:10 AM
21 suicides is the immediate. Takes 3days for turns, about 100 leader suicides possible between a player using full turns.

If i can make enough land to steal cash from most people using the same race, think about how effortless it is to open attack ops after a bunch of suicides on a lesser race like stoat  :) I could weaken my setup and still get through

As for Fair Maidens success
You'll need around 25% of the server on a team to properly defend and that team still cannot withstand excessive force.
The only way to successfully lock land is to destroy all enemy stockpiles, strong defense and create the mentality that all players need to lug around defense which avoids attempts on the emperor.
Destroying resource networth is imperative to defend consecutive suiciders as they'd go backwards using troop net getting in range. Standard attack the rat massers and pressure the leaderers from converting loyalty by taking land real low increasing initial leader losses. Keep on top of pushing land upwards to reduce the resisting production so the emp can make the most of the acres.
I rate you a very good chance of claiming complete emperorship because Hobly is in charge of the important part

Best of luck
Sevz
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Wolf Snare on January 20, 2010, 11:46:35 AM
I love how you keep discretely implying that our team is "middle skill level", and say how "our team cannot withstand excessive force", it's rather annoying when you know what all of us can do individually.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Peace Alliance on January 20, 2010, 12:49:00 PM
Not discretely, Snare, he outright said it. heh.

Which is funny, because this is one of the best teams this game has ever seen. Perhaps Sevs believes that there are others out there in promi-land that can do it better, and maybe thats true. But they aren't here to test that theory, so we remain the best.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Pippin on January 20, 2010, 01:07:22 PM
wait till ally gets his possy on you
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Sharptooh on January 20, 2010, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: Sevz on January 19, 2010, 04:17:08 PM
you attack Unsuccessfully, You lose 154 leaders and manage to destroy 453,187 of your enemies leaders. No complaints here. I'll play elsewhere.

I know this is kind of off topic, but why on earth if you attack someone with say 200 leaders and they have say 20 mil, you'll kill a ton of their leaders and they'll kill say . . . 5 of yours?

If you attacked with 200 rats against someone with 20 million rats you would get creamed, end of.

Quote from: Peace Alliance on January 19, 2010, 10:26:07 PM
So, who likes the Fair Maiden flag?

It looks great! Which one of the Fair Maiden members made it?
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Peace Alliance on January 20, 2010, 08:18:01 PM
Me of course.

And yes, you /are/ off topic. I'm sure you'll find a relevant topic on leader suicides if you scour the game dev forum.
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gorak on January 20, 2010, 09:30:29 PM
the flag is a portrait of me
Title: Re: Fair Maiden
Post by: Gen. Volkov on January 20, 2010, 09:55:42 PM
Quote21 suicides is the immediate. Takes 3days for turns, about 100 leader suicides possible between a player using full turns.

100 possible, but the number that will actually happen is much lower. It's possible to defend against.

QuoteIf i can make enough land to steal cash from most people using the same race, think about how effortless it is to open attack ops after a bunch of suicides on a lesser race like stoat  Smiley I could weaken my setup and still get through

It would all depend on the starting ratio and land.

As for the advice, thanks. Though I think we are a better team than you are saying.