"Golden age" vs "Platinum age" RWL

[Holby]

I don't see this as a rubbish thread. It's just a little off track, and the proposition is wrong.

Firstly, there was no Golden Age. There was an awesome first era, with heavy ROC influence, and 3 attack rules and stuff. It was way fun. But it was awesome because no-one knew what they were doing, no-one really knew how to make net or shut people down. It was great because it was the game's infancy. Other things helped, but they weren't integral to it.

This was all over before 2003 was out. That was nearly 8 years ago. Since then, the game has changed degrees at a time, but by the end of 2003, most hardcore ROCers were gone, RPs had died out, attack rules were out the window. It wasn't so different to our game now. Comparing the game's first year to now is nonsense, no matter what the community was like, there were bound to be massive changes.

So, I don't believe there was ever a  'Golden Era' in the years prior to you, Firetooth.

Now, to the other slightly odder assumptions.

Kills weren't a factor of ye olden days. That was just returned vets behaving in noob-like fashion 'cos they weren't really sure what they were doing.

As for diplomacy, diplomacy is huge, and has always been huge. Without diplomacy, this game is nothing. We all would have been bored out of our brains if we couldn't do fun diplomatic stuff. Spies, alliances, betrayals, plans. It's so important to what makes this game fun. We get out of it what we put in, and the most enjoyable moments any of us have in this game don't involve the end result. It's about the journey, about making clans, helping newbs, whatever. That's all diplomacy.

Diplomacy also ties in heavily with community. Without RWL's community, there would be no-one left. Most of us continue to play for years and years because of the friendships we've made, the debates and conversations we've had. Every game thrives on its community. I strongly recommend players join the forums and chat to each other. Because it's FUN.

I can only hope diplomacy remains as big a part of future Turbo rounds as it was with this one. BA/KM did awesomely. The intrigue, the plots. It's exciting, even if you're not necessarily involved in it.

Just on another obsession people have had of late...

For the most part, I find RPs a bit lame, 'cos they're so badly written. I mean, there are exceptions, and I prefer them to be tongue in cheek. But I don't see them as necessarily tools for playing out wars and stuff, they can still be done in a way that is not necessarily formal. RPs tend to alienate people not directly involved, wheras there's nothing like a robust argument. Game related topics can still be IC without being RPs, there is definitely a distinction.

On new guard/old guard:

Awesome we have old players returning. Awesome we have new ones, too. We have had a lot in Squire, and many of them are doing really well, and seem to have a keen interest in the game. Getting them on the forums can take some time, or might not ever happen, but they certainly have a strong IG presence. They're not being scared away by evil veterans bringing back the imaginary culture of the past.

END. Conclusions are boring

[Ashyra Nightwing]

Great post, Holby. There was never a 'golden age', it just seems that way since it was a while back (8 years ago, jesus)

And yes, I think RWL is more about the community than the game itself - I know for a fact I wasn't playing the game between '04 and maybe '07? I was just hanging about on the forums. Yeah, the game is important, but it's clearly more about the people.

I hope to see you in the MSN chat sessions sometime soon, Firetooth. :) I know I've never seen you online though, otherwise we would have invited you.

[Firetooth]

A good post.

Let's get stuck in. I do not pretend to know the history of the game indepth beyond when I started, but many people here to refer to a golden age, and continue to do so. I also agree the first era is not creatable as it would require everybody to willingly play bad.

Yes, kills were a factor in ye olden days. Taking land was seen as an act of war, kills were a way of achieveing this. Even without playing back then, I can tell from some threads I stumbled accross in my few years here that they were more prominent and acceptable then now. The return of vets utilizing kills may have been because they were rusty, but I also believe it was probably more widespread back then.

I agree, diplomacy should have a large role, however I think people are confusing the role it should play. Spies are boring in my opinion, although that is obviously subjective, spies generally aren't fun as they just make people paranoid and lead to false accusations. Remember that time people thought I was spying for another prom?

The journey is key, I agree. I have met some great people in the rounds, and ultimately the wars and the alliances are the funner parts, however they have a role and shouldn't extend beyond it. When things become huge, lengthy msn discussion things no longer are fun. As you said, the community is key, I've played several proms and the main reason I play here is because the community keeps the game going, however ultimately I still believe the game does come first.

Also, the KM/BA diplomacy was not fun at all. Only trusting 2 people because everyone else was a spy or out to screw you over was no fun. Wasting hours late at night in msn convos due to time zones was not fun. There was little intrigue or plot, just net being developed unopposed.

Onto RP's:

RP's are great as they allow newer players to connect and partake in the forums whilst still relating to ingame. The fact they're badly written doesn't matter, they're not meant to be literary masterpieces. They're a way for the community to make the diplomacy fun and and less personal. Even though nobody else really RP'd, I found it kind of funny looking through at the typo's I made. Arguements get too personal, as this thread shows, and are no fun. RP's let you relate to and discuss the events of the game without getting angry, and you can still have OOC posts for important stuff.

I agree, it's good old players are returning, but we need more new players to join the forums and the servers. At the moment, some newbies like Vulpes Jarr are around, but nobody seems to be making any effort to teach them anymore. Squire in reg has a good goal, but I am yet to see a decent player from their teaching, however I think we need more clans like that.  I'll probably start teaching some newbies again soon.

Edit: Thanks Ashyra, if anybody else doesn't have my msn, add it:

cdwood1@hotmail.co.uk

(be warned, it is notirously rubbish...ask Kilk, Neo or Purp)

[Neobaron]

Fix MSN

Be invited to MSN collective

???

Profit!

[Shadow]

Let's get stuck in. I do not pretend to know the history of the game indepth beyond when I started, but many people here to refer to a golden age, and continue to do so. I also agree the first era is not creatable as it would require everybody to willingly play bad.

I referred to it that way because you did.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define the new style of play? Frankly when I speak of old style play, I refer more to the community than the game itself. I find play styles almost irrelevent compared to how people interact outside of the game.

Yes, kills were a factor in ye olden days. Taking land was seen as an act of war, kills were a way of achieveing this. Even without playing back then, I can tell from some threads I stumbled accross in my few years here that they were more prominent and acceptable then now. The return of vets utilizing kills may have been because they were rusty, but I also believe it was probably more widespread back then.

Kill have always been around, but no more then than they are now.

I agree, diplomacy should have a large role, however I think people are confusing the role it should play. Spies are boring in my opinion, although that is obviously subjective, spies generally aren't fun as they just make people paranoid and lead to false accusations. Remember that time people thought I was spying for another prom?

No, people simply disagree with you on the role diplomacy plays. There is no role it "should" play, it can play any role that people feel like.

The journey is key, I agree. I have met some great people in the rounds, and ultimately the wars and the alliances are the funner parts, however they have a role and shouldn't extend beyond it. When things become huge, lengthy msn discussion things no longer are fun.

Says you! I have lots of fun talking to people on msn, usually about things completely unrelated to the game. Simply because you don't like something is no reason to tell the rest of us we shouldn't be doing it!

Also, the KM/BA diplomacy was not fun at all. Only trusting 2 people because everyone else was a spy or out to screw you over was no fun. Wasting hours late at night in msn convos due to time zones was not fun. There was little intrigue or plot, just net being developed unopposed.

Entirely your fault on every count. Wasting hours late nights on msn was because you went overboard seeing spies and conspiracies everywhere. When that happens, leave your clan and play solo to take people down. If something isn't fun, DON'T DO IT. Net being developed unnoposed was again, your fault (and the fault of everyone not in KM). It was unopposed because you chose not to oppose it. Don't complain about it after.


I do have you on msn, I just haven't seen you on there recently. Are you sure you have me? ^_^

Anyway:

Your exchange with Kilk, where you both called each other arrogant golden boys. You need to understand something about Kilk. His internet persona is developed intentionally to be a parody of the nonsense that is the Internet. He is like the Comedian from Watchmen. He knows his attitude is a joke, and he goes with it and exaggerates it for the sake of it. Your attitude is much the same (lately), but yours is genuine. And that is the problem that everyone has with it.


There is a very important point that you are missing here. RWL is not consciously choosing to play in a specific manner. There are just people who are going to play with different styles, and the game will adjust to reflect that. It is not a choice, a democratic decision to play one way or another. It is going to happen, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, and people will adapt to it.

So please, stop posting with an attitude that this is something you can change by arguing about it. It isn't. It is just something that is happening right now, for better or for worse, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[Firetooth]

And I referred to it that way because others did, the name isn't even a huge deal anyway lol. By newer style of play, I mean less kills, (generally) less convoluted diplomacy and more net produced. That is probably the best way I could briefly summarize it, although I could go in depth.

Kills were more prominent before, hence the introduction of the standard rule, though that was not during the golden age, amounts of kills have changed since I have been here and have no doubt changed before.

People can agree to disagree. As you said, the role it takes will be defined by what the players choose, through their opinions, which they can express.

I was referring to MSN convo's related to the game that are necessary to keep up with the game. Nothing wrong with MSN convo's, I use MSN myself, but they shouldn't be necessary to run a/be in a clan.

I know Kilk is intentionally flamboyant, but he shouldn't get away with constantly insulting and prodding people because of it. It's not just me, every time Kyro posts he lectures him on bad posting and tells him and others to "stop postin'," which is quite annoying...have a persona, cool, but don't be a jerk about it, which Kilk seems to be doing lately., but it gets brushed off because he's just joking and messing around Moreover, nobody every does anything about it. It's pretty stupid that I'm getting lectured when he was the one who started insulting me and was the main reason this topic was so badly derailed.

I've gone over this again, there was no way to oppose KM. They had spies everywhere, and my clan was divided on their loyalties to them. Marlfox lay down and played dead, and the only other clan were pretty much in KM'S pocket. Solo I wouldn't have been able to take the whole clan down. KM had, at it's peak (excluding me), Gen, Windy, Volk, KIlk, Ashyra, Rudder and Rev, plus purp and mike may have sided with them in a war. Not particularly good odds.

There is a very important point that you are missing here. RWL is not consciously choosing to play in a specific manner. There are just people who are going to play with different styles, and the game will adjust to reflect that. It is not a choice, a democratic decision to play one way or another. It is going to happen, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, and people will adapt to it.

So please, stop posting with an attitude that this is something you can change by arguing about it. It isn't. It is just something that is happening right now, for better or for worse, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Come on Shadow, Shael has been going on lately more and more about how the game needs to return to the old style, I can quote posts if needed. Whilst this may be a change in player attitudes, it is wrong to say that it isn't being promoted. Also, my point is that plenty of people do not approve of the old style of play returning, but generally the people posting are...yep, players from back then.

(also, are you sure you have my new MSN account? It says you don't on my buddy/friend list)

[Shadow]

Come on Shadow, Shael has been going on lately more and more about how the game needs to return to the old style, I can quote posts if needed. Whilst this may be a change in player attitudes, it is wrong to say that it isn't being promoted. Also, my point is that plenty of people do not approve of the old style of play returning, but generally the people posting are...yep, players from back then.

Shael -likes- that old players are returning. Who cares how they play? People are playing in the old manner, which is to say more community, lots of battles that are all in good fun. Of course she promotes it. So do I. That doesn't by any means indicate that we can dictate that that is what play styles are going to be. Shael's, and my support, do exactly as much as your non-support. Nothing at all, other than an expression of opinion.

Nothing whatsoever about our plans for the future development of the game have changed as a result of this influx of old members playing a different style. They have brought some new ideas to the table that were not there in the old days of the game, but the basic plan going forward is the same.

I repeat. Nothing at all has changed, except the perceptions that people have about the game. And that is not something that we can dictate or even guide in a particular direction, and it is not something that we want to have any control over.

I was referring to MSN convo's related to the game that are necessary to keep up with the game. Nothing wrong with MSN convo's, I use MSN myself, but they shouldn't be necessary to run a/be in a clan.

Where do you get this idea that it is necessary to talk on msn to keep up with the game? I don't understand what your problem with this is. I talk to various people on msn because it is fun and it is interesting to talk to people from all over the world who happen to share my odd, esoteric (is this the word I want?) interest in text-based strategy games from the 90s.

I know Kilk is intentionally flamboyant, but he shouldn't get away with constantly insulting and prodding people because of it. It's not just me,

Come on Shadow, Shael has been going on lately more and more about how the game needs to return to the old style, I can quote posts if needed. Whilst this may be a change in player attitudes, it is wrong to say that it isn't being promoted. Also, my point is that plenty of people do not approve of the old style of play returning, but generally the people posting are...yep, players from back then.

every time Kyro posts he lectures him on bad posting and tells him and others to "stop postin'," which is quite annoying...have a persona, cool, but don't be a jerk about it, which Kilk seems to be doing lately., but it gets brushed off because he's just joking and messing around Moreover, nobody every does anything about it. It's pretty stupid that I'm getting lectured when he was the one who started insulting me and was the main reason this topic was so badly derailed.

If kilk crosses the line into outright flaming I will moderate him as I would anyone else. If there is a post he makes that I let slide that you think should not be let slide, send me a message and I will reconsider things.

I've gone over this again, there was no way to oppose KM. They had spies everywhere, and my clan was divided on their loyalties to them. Marlfox lay down and played dead, and the only other clan were pretty much in KM'S pocket. Solo I wouldn't have been able to take the whole clan down. KM had, at it's peak (excluding me), Gen, Windy, Volk, KIlk, Ashyra, Rudder and Rev, plus purp and mike may have sided with them in a war. Not particularly good odds.

Boo hoo. So what if you fail? Me and Lucy failed to stop them, and we had a blast doing it.

(also, are you sure you have my new MSN account? It says you don't on my buddy/friend list)

I think so... unless the domain has changed. I will check again.

[Firetooth]

I like that old players are turning to, my issue is not with that. By supporting one style of play you view the other style of play as lesser. Even if it is not currently affecting development, it may well do, which is why it is good to express your opinion. Shael's post actually does seem to state the game is being pushed into the direction of "the golden age."

Firetooth, haven't you been reading the topics lately? Every player here who has played both then and now agree that the old days were better. We've actually been trying to move the game in that direction again. It was RWL's Golden Age. Most oldbies agree that the playerbase as a whole has gone soft, and the "troop hole" warlord notices is evidence of this.

I also think it is silly to say that there was no community and no battles before. This isn't the peak of forum activity in my tine here, neither it is the peak of in game activity.

Kilk already has crossed into outright flaming when he only started replying to insult me opposed to commenting on the discussion itself.

I dunno. Maybe I'm more elitist than I thought. I have failed before, but I just don't see the appeal of going into something you know you can't win...in future I will try to keep a more open attitude.

[Shadow]

What Shael meant is that we are trying to move away from lonely net-fest and into competitive interaction. That was the plan well before any of the oldies showed up. In fact most of the planned changes are designed to maximize interactions, both peaceful and aggressive. It does NOT say that we are catering changes to the old crowd any more than the new one. Nor will we. That I will promise you. Changes are intended to balance the game, not to promote a particular style of play. And if it happens that the changes have that unintended consequence, we will always tweak things again.

I also think it is silly to say that there was no community and no battles before

Before this round, I don't even remember the last leader takedown I did. Which is my fault for the change that killed it, but the fact remains that leaders have not had much competition beside sack lately.

I mean, even when we emped Holby and owned the game for so long... Nobody fought. Well, they did, but barely. It was just... boring.

The attitude I would like to see, is for people to stop caring where they end up and playing for the moment. It is more important to me that people have fun now, then for them to finish in rank 1. hell, I don't even remember who won any past rounds. I think I may have won a few, but I am not sure which, or how.

Now I will give you that this is a relatively new attitude for me. I was rather like you for a good while, more concerned with the outcome. And it sucks. This is way better. Which is why I like the shift that is happening now. But I can't help or hinder it. It just happens.


You still haven't acknowledged this! You are arguing and arguing, but the point remains that it doesn't do anything. Please acknowledge this. If you want to have a part in game development, post ideas and we can talk them through. But this arguing is not constructive.

Kilk already has crossed into outright flaming when he only started replying to insult me opposed to commenting on the discussion itself.

I haven't seen anything from him this thread that I haven't also seen from you ^_^

[Neobaron]

This isn't the peak of forum activity in my tine here, neither it is the peak of in game activity.

Perhaps it is coincidence, but the last 3 months have been the most active forum wise since October, 2009. Just sayin'.

[Firetooth]

I see. Well, that is reassuring to hear.

I can remember leader takedowns. Hey, two rounds before this one on Shael+Snare's clan, who name escapes me. Also, I agree leader needs competition, but because of the way the strategies work, that is not going to happen without radical change. Leaders never had and, without reforms, won't really continue to have much competition, unfortunately.

I agree, but despite my role helping Holby emp I was not around for much of that, so I can't remember exactly what happened...maybe that shows something. The same thing happened with Ereptor back when I was newer here, and I remember me and nobody else really fought.

Fun is definitely more important than winning, nobody (at least I think nobody) is denying that. I've had fun plenty of times without winning, because of, as Holby said, the journey, however ultimately the game is competitive and people act without thinking of long term benefits for them it might not work out great.

Finally, I realize this shift is not something directly controlled and is unavoidable. I've never said otherwise, I was pointing out what I see as flaws with the change. But as you said, we will eventually see what the style ends up becoming over time.

I'm not denying my fault, just proclaiming his.  :P

This isn't the peak of forum activity in my tine here, neither it is the peak of in game activity.

Perhaps it is coincidence, but the last 3 months have been the most active forum wise since October, 2009. Just sayin'.

I think that is the period I was referring to, one sec.

[Neobaron]

Based on PPD, I'd be willing to bet it is an error. This forum does not make 700+ posts per day unless the spa is counted.

[Shadow]

Those stats do count spa posts.

I'm not denying my fault, just proclaiming his.  Tongue

Well, don't. our general approach to everyone and everything in this thread was a disaster, and it did you no favours.

[Firetooth]

http://www.redwallwarlords.com/forums/index.php?board=32.620

There are pages and pages of nov. in there, so as spa is counted that is why, as that is the same period as the oct flux.

That was the period I was referring to in forum activity...game activity would be between mid 2008 and 2009 for me probably, but that is a while ago, so forgive me if my memory is poor.

[Neobaron]

Ahh.

So it looks like that was during the AoU saga or whatever... inflated numbers.